What is the purpose of Hell?

[DerechHashem]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We see the spirit of Samuel raised from the dead in addition we see Moses (a spirit) and Elijah (glorified spirit body) conversing with Jesus in the NT. Also the story of a "certain rich man" and Lazarus indicate that the soul lives on after death. In this story we see the soul of the rich man, the soul of Lazarus, the soul of Abraham and the rich man's please to warn his brothers so that their souls do not find a place of torment. Not to mention that Paul stated that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Many will try to use Luke 16:19-31 as proof that there is conscious life after death, and that there is a place of eternal torment (Hell). It is important to point out that Luke 16:19-31 is the fifth in a series of parables as follows -

1. The lost sheep - Luke 15:3-7
2. The lost coin - Luke 15:8-10
3. The lost boy - Luke 15:11-32
4. The unjust steward - Luke 16:1-13
5. The rich man and Lazarus - Luke 16:19-31

Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken absolutely literally. The question in each parable is what are the great moral lessons. We get into deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson that Jesus is trying to teach. Let's go ahead and assume for a moment that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literally true story-

Do people actually have conversations between Heaven and Hell?

Can those in heaven see people burning in Hell?

Can they hear their screams?

Would a finger dipped in water actually lessen the torment of another?

Abraham must have a very large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there!

Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends for all of eternity. So, why did Jesus use this story and tell it as He did? What lesson(s) was He trying to teach?

The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness and they pictured salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham's bosom. The Jews also believed that riches were a sign of God's favor and poverty a sign of His displeasure.

The rich man living sumptuously represents the Jews, who had access to the word of God but refused to share it. They were squandering and wasting the spiritual riches for which they were the stewards, as in the previous parable of the unjust steward. The Jews were the fig tree that bore no fruit (Mark 11:13-14, 20). Lazarus represents the Gentiles, who the Jews would not minister to. So the rich man in the story, whom the Jews thought blessed of God, ends up in Hell, while the poor Lazarus is saved and greeted by Abraham. Jesus had reversed the outcome from what the Jews expected.

This is why Jesus used the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in the way he did. It was not intended to convey the exact circumstances of Heaven or Hell, but rather to show to the Jews that they had grave misconceptions about who was saved and who was lost.

These are the main points the parable teaches:

1. Like the parable of the talents (Matt 25:14-30), the unprofitable servant who squanders what the Lord has given him will be lost.

2. Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God's favor. Wealth is simply not an indicator of one's salvation.

3. The parable describes a great fixed gulf between the saved and the lost. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny, and it simply cannot be changed after death.

4. Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God's word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one being raised from the dead.

Note that a short while later in John 11:11-14,43,44 Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. As a result the Pharisees and chief priests plotted to kill Jesus (John 11:53) and Lazarus (John 12:10). So the words of Jesus in Luke 16:31 were indeed prophetic and fulfilled.

So parables are not meant to be taken literally as written. You must read beyond the literal text to see the important principle or lesson(s) being taught.

Our God is a Consuming Fire

http://biblelight.net/hell.htm

[DerechHashem]

Originally Posted by Aquila

We see the spirit of Samuel raised from the dead in addition we see Moses (a spirit) and Elijah (glorified spirit body) conversing with Jesus in the NT. Also the story of a "certain rich man" and Lazarus indicate that the soul lives on after death. In this story we see the soul of the rich man, the soul of Lazarus, the soul of Abraham and the rich man's please to warn his brothers so that their souls do not find a place of torment. Not to mention that Paul stated that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Are Enoch, Eliyah and Moses in Heaven?

The Bible says, "Eliyah went up in whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kgs.2:11); Enoch was translated by Yahweh (Heb.11:5); and Moses appeared in the transfiguration with Yahshua (Mt.17:3). Do these scriptures prove that the three were in heaven while Messiah was alive on Earth? No!

Jn.3:13 - "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, the Son of Man." These words were spoken by Yahshua himself in regards to being "born again" or resurrected from the dead (vss 3-12). These words cannot be denied or misunderstood.

We also have the Apostle Paul's witness; Col.1:18 - "that in all things he might have the preeminence." Yahshua had to be the firstborn from the dead; the first to be resurrected unto eternal life; the first to ascend into heaven and stand before Yahweh. If anyone preceeded him then he wasn't the firstborn from the dead. Since some people believe Enoch and Eliyah did not die, but that Moses did die, then that would mean Moses had the preeminence over Messiah.

In light of these two powerful verses, Jn.3:13 and Col.1:18, how can we explain what happened to Enoch, Eliyah and Moses? Let's begin with Moses;

Duet.34:5,6 - There cannot be any doubt that Moses died and was buried. Therefore, for him to be in heaven, he had to be resurrected from the dead. According to I Cor.15:52 that will not occur until the last trumpet sounds.

What about Michael and Satan disputing about Moses' body? Jude 9 does not say Michael won the dispute and then took Moses to heaven. Since there is no mention of heaven here we should not assume he was taken there.

Mt.17:1-9 - Notice verse 9 says, "Tell the vision to no man." a vision is not reality. The same Greek word for "vision" was used of Peter's vision of the abominations on the cloth in Acts 10:17. They were not real but a supernatural picture. In the case of the transfiguration it was a prophetic vision which would take place in the distant future.

Mt.16:28 - This was quoted by Yahshua six days before the transfiguration. He was speaking to the disciples, but what did he mean? Surely he didn't mean they would live for almost 2,000 years until his coming at the last trumpet. Those that would not "taste of death" were Peter, James and John who saw the Son of Man glorified in the Kingdom through a prophetic vision.

Heb.11:23-28 - These verses talk about Moses living by faith. Verses 39,40 - Moses did not receive the promise of a resurrection unto eternal life and perfection.
What about Eliyah? We have already seen that the transfiguration was a prophetic vision which does not prove that he was in heaven.

Heb.11:32 - Here we read about the prophets who lived by faith and died without receiving the promise. Eliyah was surely one of those prophets. But to be certain let's look at what happened to him in 2 Kgs.2:1,11 .

If Yahshua the Messiah said "no man has ascended to heaven," then what heaven are these scriptures talking about? The Bible mentions three heavens. The first heaven is Earth's atmosphere where birds fly (Gen.1:20); The second heaven is outer space where the planets and stars exist (Gen.1:16,17); The third heaven is what the Apostle Paul calls "paradise" in II Cor.12:2-4. It is where Yahweh and the heavenly sanctuary exist.

Eliyah was caught up to the first heaven where birds fly and was transported to another location on Earth. Notice vss. 15 & 16; the sons of the prophets, who knew Eliyah would be taken away (vss. 3,5), believed that Eliyah was taken to another location. They didn't think he went to the third heaven.

A similar incident to Eliyah's took place in Acts 8:39,40 - Phillip was caught up into the first heaven, as Eliyah was, and was transported to another location approximately 3o miles away. Eliyah may not have been found because he was transported further away than the fifty men searched (vs. 17).

Proof that Eliyah did not die, but was transported, is found in II Chr.21:12-15 . From the wording of this letter it is clear that Eliyah wrote it after the events occurred for he speaks of them as past events, and of the disease as a future event.

Cont. . .

[DerechHashem]

Cont. . .

This letter was written by Eliyah more than four years after his being taken up to the first heaven (see attached chronology). The Bible does not reveal how much longer Eliyah lived after writing the letter but it does say in Heb.9:27 that it is appointed unto men to die once.

Heb.9:27 would also include Enoch among the dead. Based on that verse and Yahshua's statement in Jn.3:13, "no man has ascended to heaven", how are we to understand the account of Enoch?

Gen.5:21-24 - These verses do not tell us much except that Enoch's days, alive on Earth, ended at 365 years old. The question is, did he die, was he taken to heaven alive, or was he transported to another location on Earth as Eliyah was?

Consider Ps.37:35,36 and Ps.39:12,13;

"I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found."

"Hear my prayer, O Yahweh, and give ear unto my cry; hold not thy peace at my tears: for I am a stranger with thee, and a sojourner, as all my fathers were. O spare me, that I may recover strength, before I go hence, and be no more."

The Hebrew for the phrases in bold is the same Hebrew as Gen.5:24; "And Enoch walked with Elohim: and he was not; for Elohim took him." As in the Psalms, the phrase means the person "passed away" or would eventually die. Consider also Gen.42:13 and Gen.44:20;

"And they said, Thy servants are twelve brethren, the sons of one man in the land of Canaan; and, behold, the youngest is this day with our father, and one is not." This was spoken of Joseph by his brothers. What did they mean by "is not"?

"And we said unto my lord, We have a father, an old man, and a child of his old age, a little one; and his brother is dead, and he alone is left of his mother, and his father loveth him." Here the brothers recount their previous discussion about Joseph with Pharoah. When they first said, "and one is not," they meant Joseph "is dead." Finally, consider Mt.2:18;

"In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not." Where are Rachel's children? Dead.

Heb.11:5 - Does the phrase "should not see death" mean Enoch never died? Let's read the first three words of Heb 11:4,5,7,8,11 and 13 . Everyone mentioned in the previous verses died including Enoch. But not only that, verse 13 goes on to say that they did not receive the promises. One of the promises was a heavenly country (vs. 16). If Enoch were in heaven, wouldn't he have received that promise? The fact is, Enoch is not in heaven but is dead in the grave awaiting his resurrection along with every other saint.

Ps.89:47,48 - Why would the Psalmist ask such a question concerning physical death if he believed Enoch did not see a physical death? The fact is, the Psalmist believed Enoch was in the grave and therefore asked the question.

So what does the phrase "should not see death" mean? In Lu. 2:25-29 we see that phrase to mean that Simeon would not die a physical death or what is known as "the first death." Without any further Bible study we would be led to believe Enoch never died and is still alive in heaven. But let's look at Jn.8:51 . Here the phrase "shall never see death" must mean "the second death" since all the Apostles, including Paul, kept Yahshua's sayings and yet died the first death.

Now we must decide whether the phrase "should not see death", as it applies to Enoch, means the first or second death. Based on Heb.9:27 and Heb.11:13 we must conclude that he died the first death prematurely so that he should not see the second death. To believe Enoch did not die is to deny the plain word of many other scriptures as well. For example, Rom.5:12,14 says all men die because all have sinned. Are we to believe that Enoch did not sin or that the curse for sinning did not apply to him? Are we to believe that a man who was not yet cleansed of sin by the blood of Messiah could enter heaven and dwell in Yahweh's presence?

Heb.11:5 - If Enoch did not die and was not taken to heaven then where was he translated to and what does "translation" mean? According to Strong's, Thayer's and Bullinger's Greek Lexicons, "translate" means "to put or place in another place, to transport, to transfer." The same Greek word was used in Acts 7:16 where Jacob's body was "translated" or "carried over" to Sychem to be buried. Yahweh took Enoch and buried him somewhere so as not to be found just as he did with the body of Moses in Deut.34:6. Moses' body was never found and neither was Enoch's because Yahweh hid them for reasons known only to Him.

I Cor.15:20-23 - All die and all shall be resurrected, but Messiah must be first in the order. Enoch could not possibly precede him, especially if he were still flesh and blood as it says in verses 49-52. To be able to dwell in heaven we must be changed from a flesh and blood natural body to a spiritual heavenly body. That change does not take place until the last trumpet.

In conclusion, let's turn to Jn.3:13 . Are we going to believe Yahshua based on the evidence just presented or are we going to hold onto a false doctrine? The choice is yours.

http://www.intergate.com/~jcordaro/e...yah,moses.html

[Aquila]

[QUOTE=easter;827014]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Easter... truth be told... the the teachings of a hell of eternal torments doesn't prevent anyone from sinning. Nor does it bring a lasting conversion.

I don't believe that hearing a sermon preached about hell stops people from sinning.However hell is a consequence for sin.Of course I'm not an authority on sermons but it seems like someone could not preach on the cross without touching base with the consequences of rejecting Jesus.
If a theory is taught that Hell is only temporary then it takes away on just what it is that Jesus went through and why he went through the torturous death of the cross.In other words one might wonder if sinners get out of hell why is the cross so important.

I think you’re misunderstanding. It’s not that Jesus died to save us from a temporary Hell… it’s that Jesus died that reconciliation could ultimately be possible. Without Christ’s death on the cross for the entire world, Hell would be eternal for all. However, Christ’s death makes reconciliation possible. Some will be reconciled by the Gospel in this life while others will pass through the fires and be reconciled in the ages to come.

Every knee will one day bow and every tongue will one day confess that Jesus is Lord, to the GLORY of God the Father. All is made possible by the cross. One day all of creation will look back and be able to thank Jesus for what He did at Calvary. At Calvary Jesus won the ultimate victory. Because of the cross… Satan wins nothing.

This teaching will sound good to a fence rider but we can't forget that the word of God is a double edged sword.Some will love to hear and other's it will cut to the quick.We can not water down God's judgements on the wicked to try and win souls over.What if these folks die as fence riders and they find out that Hell is eternal just like God's word has promised it would be.

There are several issues with the above. When you say “fence rider”, I assume that you believe that you are not a fence rider. Interestingly, most don’t. Honestly, we all are. We’re all wretched sinners in need of a savior. The notion of spiritual superiority and achieving salvation based on our own good works, which are as filthy rags, is a stench in God’s nostrils. So easy to look down our noses upon those we deem are “fence riders”. And what makes them fence riders? Because they don’t believe it exactly like ourselves? Is it because they struggle with a different sin? Perhaps a sin that is less easily hidden than our own?

News flash… God isn’t trying to save the world right now. He’s establishing a church. If God wanted to save the world right now…he would. He’d know exactly what to do to bring all men to choose him willingly according to their own freewill. God is calling out a church to rule and reign with him. The church will rule and reign with him throughout eternity as the souls of the wicked are refined and ultimately reconciled, each man in his own order. If God is trying to save the world now… he’s failed. Less than 2% of humanity has been saved by the cross… and it’s been over 2,000 years. McDonald’s has over a Billion serves (that’s roughly 11% of mankind)…and that’s only in our generation. That means McDonald’s has been far more successful than the cross.

God’s plan is to redeem ALL of mankind through the cross. Right now He’s calling out a church… in the ages to come He’ll reconcile all men unto himself… and the cross will be absolutely VICTORIOUS over sin, death, and the Devil.

We need to tell the world of God’s goodness and how Christ died to redeem humanity. The power of God’s love will do wonders…the traditional notion of Hell certainly isn’t winning converts. Why? Because the human heart knows it’s contrary to the nature of the loving God we talk about.

When it comes to God’s Word… the English translations may lead one to believe that Hell is eternal. However, the Greek language teaches otherwise. In fact out of the six major schools of Christianity within the first centuries of our faith, four taught what I’m tell you now. These were Greek speaking schools. The only school to teach eternal torments was the Latin school… Rome. And as we all know, Rome won the theological debates for political reasons and gave us both the doctrines of the Trinity and the notion of eternal torments. When Augustine was advocating for the doctrine of eternal Hell he made note that he faced tremendous resistance from bodies of Christians all over the Christian world because they believed that all would eventually be reconciled by the cross. Augustine had to accept them as brethren of like precious faith for they were so many. The vast majority of the early Greek Fathers also believed in this teaching. It’s called Apokatastasis. A rich history of Christian faith and belief.

Now…if the Scriptures so vehemently demand a Hell of eternal torments… why did the four out of six schools that actually spoke the language of the New Testament teach Universal salvation?

And if sinners burn forever in torments… what is the purpose of such a judgment?

[Aquila]

Derech,

Do you believe in spirits and angels?

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by DerechHashem

So you believe all the above is false?

Hades was not a Greek mytholigical God in charge of the Netherworld, Gehenna never existed in the Valley of Hinnom? Tartaroo was never a prison for the lesser Gods in mythology? And Sheol never means "pit, grave, hole, cavern, etc?

First, who on this Forum is going to take the time to try and figure out if what you're saying is true or not? Your "Hebrew and Greek" insight is quite frankly, not only boring, but heartless. You swallow a camel, and strain at a gnat. The weightier matters of the Law fill your explanation, playing musical chairs with Scripture. This depicts to me that God does not love me, and that I will never get close to Him because I can't figure out what you're saying.

You stand head and shoulders above everyone with your Historical gibberish and language barrier, while people are left scratching their heads. Put enough spin on it, and everybody is dizzy. It sounds good, even though it doesn't make sense.

I'll ask you what I've asked countless others; What did people do before people like you came along, Bible thumping everyone out of existence?

For 3500 years man was on this Planet with NO SCRIPTURE! NONE! When Adam was apparently created, God placed no Bible in the Garden. No books. No Hebrew. No Greek. No Hell. No Heaven. NO RELIGION!!! The Garden was a place of relationship with Man, his wife, and God.

And, the Hell of Eternal torture did not appear until after Jesus had been crucified, being written in the 4 Gospels, some say not until 50-100 years AD. There is also great speculation that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John did not author these books. No author can be found, and historians are concerned because the language of those texts and the education of these books don't link to a fisherman.

Let’s also remember, we didn't have an actual Bible until the 16th Century. That means the Bible was printed and made 400 years ago. And, it took Centuries of printing the Bible to distribute it throughout the Earth. What you do today, was done by only the Pharisees/Leviticus Priesthood who had access to the Torah (First 5 Books of the Bible).

After over 30 years as a Christian/Apostolic, and the first 20 years of my life as a Catholic, my eyes have been opened by experience. People have real questions about the method to our madness. Eternal Hell sounds good to the new convert, zeal boiling from their veins. But as life unfolds, and reality is played out, what we once believed is not only challenged, but found to be a lie in many areas. Prophecies fail. Healings were false. People speaking in tongues were motivated by pressure. Our altar antics depict a loss of our senses. Preachers screaming their message under the anointing of volume. Rolling on the floor in a frenzy, or drunk in the Spirit.

Then the big one; Who’s really saved, and who’s really lost? As I’ve gotten older, great memories fill my mind about my Grandparents. Living in the same home for over 50 years, going through the Great Depression, and loving me as a grandson, these fine people helped raise me. My grandfather taught me how to fish, took me camping, and loved spending time with me. My grandmother was a dynamic woman, faithful to her husband and loyal to her family to the death. They are one reason today, I’m the man that I am.

Nothing fancy here. Nothing hard to explain. Just good people, who shared their life with me as a young boy, and part of my young married life. Yeah, they made mistakes like all of us, but there was no doubt about how they loved life and people, putting something in me that comes only through realationship, not head knowledge.

They died Catholics. I was taught, and told to justify with Scripture, that Catholics are LOST. If God is going to hurl these people into Eternal Hell, none of us stand a chance!

[easter]

[QUOTE=Aquila;827102]

Originally Posted by easter

I think you’re misunderstanding. It’s not that Jesus died to save us from a temporary Hell… it’s that Jesus died that reconciliation could ultimately be possible. Without Christ’s death on the cross for the entire world, Hell would be eternal for all. However, Christ’s death makes reconciliation possible. Some will be reconciled by the Gospel in this life while others will pass through the fires and be reconciled in the ages to come.

Every knee will one day bow and every tongue will one day confess that Jesus is Lord, to the GLORY of God the Father. All is made possible by the cross. One day all of creation will look back and be able to thank Jesus for what He did at Calvary. At Calvary Jesus won the ultimate victory. Because of the cross… Satan wins nothing.



There are several issues with the above. When you say “fence rider”, I assume that you believe that you are not a fence rider. Interestingly, most don’t. Honestly, we all are. We’re all wretched sinners in need of a savior. The notion of spiritual superiority and achieving salvation based on our own good works, which are as filthy rags, is a stench in God’s nostrils. So easy to look down our noses upon those we deem are “fence riders”. And what makes them fence riders? Because they don’t believe it exactly like ourselves? Is it because they struggle with a different sin? Perhaps a sin that is less easily hidden than our own?

News flash… God isn’t trying to save the world right now. He’s establishing a church. If God wanted to save the world right now…he would. He’d know exactly what to do to bring all men to choose him willingly according to their own freewill. God is calling out a church to rule and reign with him. The church will rule and reign with him throughout eternity as the souls of the wicked are refined and ultimately reconciled, each man in his own order. If God is trying to save the world now… he’s failed. Less than 2% of humanity has been saved by the cross… and it’s been over 2,000 years. McDonald’s has over a Billion serves (that’s roughly 11% of mankind)…and that’s only in our generation. That means McDonald’s has been far more successful than the cross.

God’s plan is to redeem ALL of mankind through the cross. Right now He’s calling out a church… in the ages to come He’ll reconcile all men unto himself… and the cross will be absolutely VICTORIOUS over sin, death, and the Devil.

We need to tell the world of God’s goodness and how Christ died to redeem humanity. The power of God’s love will do wonders…the traditional notion of Hell certainly isn’t winning converts. Why? Because the human heart knows it’s contrary to the nature of the loving God we talk about.

When it comes to God’s Word… the English translations may lead one to believe that Hell is eternal. However, the Greek language teaches otherwise. In fact out of the six major schools of Christianity within the first centuries of our faith, four taught what I’m tell you now. These were Greek speaking schools. The only school to teach eternal torments was the Latin school… Rome. And as we all know, Rome won the theological debates for political reasons and gave us both the doctrines of the Trinity and the notion of eternal torments. When Augustine was advocating for the doctrine of eternal Hell he made note that he faced tremendous resistance from bodies of Christians all over the Christian world because they believed that all would eventually be reconciled by the cross. Augustine had to accept them as brethren of like precious faith for they were so many. The vast majority of the early Greek Fathers also believed in this teaching. It’s called Apokatastasis. A rich history of Christian faith and belief.

Now…if the Scriptures so vehemently demand a Hell of eternal torments… why did the four out of six schools that actually spoke the language of the New Testament teach Universal salvation?

And if sinners burn forever in torments… what is the purpose of such a judgment?

Oh no it's not that I misunderstand.I know that Jesus is the Lamb of God.I know exactly what the cross means for all man kind.Now I know most here are of the oneness understanding.So bear with.
By the blood of the lamb our sins are covered and we are reconciled to the Father.God can not look upon sin.Jesus dying on the cross covers a multitude of sins.
Jesus talks to Nicodemus about being born again.Born of the Spirit.Nicodemus didn't understand this.Of course we understand this as accepting Jesus as our savior and as a child of God we are promised the comforter,the Holy Spirit.So we are born of the Spirit and that also means we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.The Holy Spirit bears witness with our Spirit,meaning when there are two witnesses,Jesus is in the midst of them.Jesus knows we are his sheep because he knows us because we are sealed.This is the point of the cross.

I believe Jesus(THE WORD) has established his church by his words.God has already sent his son to save the world.It's up to the ones who hear the word if whether they want to be saved or not.God has not failed.Comparing God to McDonald's is twisted.
To define a fence rider more clearly...
This is someone who hears the truth,likes the way it sounds but never fully commits their life to the Lord.Someone who is Christian in name only and no we are not all fence riders.For those who have a close,personal relationship with the Lord,these folks are up and about the Father's business.
If Hell is not real or eternal I wonder why God thought it necessary to send his son to die in our place.Since the souls of man don't die then if Jesus died in our place.IF WE ARE SAVED BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB<WHAT ARE WE SAVED FROM?
I'm not trying to be diffulcult.I would really like to know how Hell may not be eternal.This goes against scripture for the most part.

[easter]

"NOT FOR SALE",
I read your post and the part about your grandparents and it's what I'd like to address...
Jesus came here and seen the man made religions.Even told the leaders they didn't even know who they worshiped.The religions were and are made up with mostly man made traditions.
Like you said"Strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.They would allow one thing if they thought it was ok,yet they jumped Jesus when he healed on a sabbath.
God looks on the hearts of man.If you were told Catholics went to hell.That's a lie straight from the enemy.Jesus looks on the hearts and just because someone may be Catholic,Baptist or Pentecostal,these people don't go to Heaven on the coat tails of the church.They go to Heaven because God searches the hearts.If your Grandparents were as you say,and they Loved the Lord you know they are in Heaven.
Also I would like to add that I was raised Baptist and taught to fear God and I mean literally Fear him.If one didn't accept him,God would throw out a harsh punishment.After one accepted Christ,if you didn't live sin free God would retaliate and something bad would happen to you or someone you love.I spent the first 20 years of my life believing a lie and not to mention that I believed God might really be evil if he would kill me if I messed up.
Thank the Lord I now know that God is Love so maybe this Hell theory could be a scare tactic but I'm not real sure about it.I do know God don't send somebody to Hell because they are Catholic.

[DerechHashem]

[QUOTE=Aquila;827102]

Originally Posted by easter

I think you’re misunderstanding. It’s not that Jesus died to save us from a temporary Hell… it’s that Jesus died that reconciliation could ultimately be possible. Without Christ’s death on the cross for the entire world, Hell would be eternal for all. However, Christ’s death makes reconciliation possible. Some will be reconciled by the Gospel in this life while others will pass through the fires and be reconciled in the ages to come.

Every knee will one day bow and every tongue will one day confess that Jesus is Lord, to the GLORY of God the Father. All is made possible by the cross. One day all of creation will look back and be able to thank Jesus for what He did at Calvary. At Calvary Jesus won the ultimate victory. Because of the cross… Satan wins nothing.

There are several issues with the above. When you say “fence rider”, I assume that you believe that you are not a fence rider. Interestingly, most don’t. Honestly, we all are. We’re all wretched sinners in need of a savior. The notion of spiritual superiority and achieving salvation based on our own good works, which are as filthy rags, is a stench in God’s nostrils. So easy to look down our noses upon those we deem are “fence riders”. And what makes them fence riders? Because they don’t believe it exactly like ourselves? Is it because they struggle with a different sin? Perhaps a sin that is less easily hidden than our own?

News flash… God isn’t trying to save the world right now. He’s establishing a church. If God wanted to save the world right now…he would. He’d know exactly what to do to bring all men to choose him willingly according to their own freewill. God is calling out a church to rule and reign with him. The church will rule and reign with him throughout eternity as the souls of the wicked are refined and ultimately reconciled, each man in his own order. If God is trying to save the world now… he’s failed. Less than 2% of humanity has been saved by the cross… and it’s been over 2,000 years. McDonald’s has over a Billion serves (that’s roughly 11% of mankind)…and that’s only in our generation. That means McDonald’s has been far more successful than the cross.

God’s plan is to redeem ALL of mankind through the cross. Right now He’s calling out a church… in the ages to come He’ll reconcile all men unto himself… and the cross will be absolutely VICTORIOUS over sin, death, and the Devil.

We need to tell the world of God’s goodness and how Christ died to redeem humanity. The power of God’s love will do wonders…the traditional notion of Hell certainly isn’t winning converts. Why? Because the human heart knows it’s contrary to the nature of the loving God we talk about.

When it comes to God’s Word… the English translations may lead one to believe that Hell is eternal. However, the Greek language teaches otherwise. In fact out of the six major schools of Christianity within the first centuries of our faith, four taught what I’m tell you now. These were Greek speaking schools. The only school to teach eternal torments was the Latin school… Rome. And as we all know, Rome won the theological debates for political reasons and gave us both the doctrines of the Trinity and the notion of eternal torments. When Augustine was advocating for the doctrine of eternal Hell he made note that he faced tremendous resistance from bodies of Christians all over the Christian world because they believed that all would eventually be reconciled by the cross. Augustine had to accept them as brethren of like precious faith for they were so many. The vast majority of the early Greek Fathers also believed in this teaching. It’s called Apokatastasis. A rich history of Christian faith and belief.

Now…if the Scriptures so vehemently demand a Hell of eternal torments… why did the four out of six schools that actually spoke the language of the New Testament teach Universal salvation?

And if sinners burn forever in torments… what is the purpose of such a judgment?

Hell is the grave, and yes without Jesus going to the cross, there would be no resurrection.

Hell, Hades, Limbo, Purgatory, etc, is Pagan nonsense.

News flash… God isn’t trying to save the world right now. He’s establishing a church.

In your Universalist thought, why would God need to establish a church, if noe are going to perish and all are saved? He has his church.

[easter]

[QUOTE=DerechHashem;827308]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Hell is the grave, and yes without Jesus going to the cross, there would be no resurrection.

Hell, Hades, Limbo, Purgatory, etc, is Pagan nonsense.



In your Universalist thought, why would God need to establish a church, if noe are going to perish and all are saved? He has his church.

OK, but do you even know who your addressing this post to Derech?