How Many of HIS Creation will He Lose to "HELL"?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Bro. Benincasa,
As we both know Matt. 25:46 is the proof text of endless punishment:

"These shall go away into everlasting punishment, and the righteous into life eternal."

If we review the context it sheds doubt on this being endless punishment, since the recipients only stated failure is not considering the poor.

If we let scripture interpret scripture we recognize that God's punishments are REMEDIAL, all of God's punishments are of our Heavenly Father, therefore must be adapted to the improvement of His children.

CJ, the punishments that God performs upon His creation are two fold, the first is to the Wicked and that is eternal and everlasting, which means that they cannot be redeemed from that punishment once it has been handed out.

Henceforth the eternal, and everlasting punishment. The second is correction and chastisement to those God loves. The Proverbs explain how God's punishments work and we see a good example of this in the book of Daniel.

Dan 3:19-23

"Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated. And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace. Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of THE FIRE SLEW THOSE MEN that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and THEY HAVE NO HURT; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

The wicked are destroyed but the righteous are protected. The Egyptians are drowned in the Red Sea but the saints of God pass through the baptism with safety.

Pro 1:22-33

"How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear. When your fear cometh as desolation, and your DESTRUCTION cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will NOT answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall NOT find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall SLAY them, and the prosperity of fools shall DESTROY them. BUT whoso hearkeneth unto me shall DWELL SAFELY, and shall be QUIET from fear of evil."

Originally Posted by crakjak

Hebrews 12:5-11 "My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him: for whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth ever son whom He receiveth." And then John 3:16: "For God so loved the world...."

Excuse me, but at first glance this above quote may sound correct but in the light of proper Biblical hermeneutics we can see that there are two distinct groups, one who are corrected through punishments and the others who are eternally punished without remedy.


In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[AGAPE]

Revelation 14

6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Now we could at this point go into the meaning of the words translated "everlasting and eternal" however we both know there are numerous examples throughout scripture where these words are clearly not "endless" in meaning. Of course you may say: "Then eternal life is not endless, for the same Greek adjective defines the life and the punishment". This does not follow however, for the Greek work is used in different senses in the same sentence; as in Hab. 3:6. "And the everlasting mountains were scattered, His ways are everlasting."

CJ, can you show how this happens in the original languages? Please show us grammatically how this occurs in the Biblical texts.

Originally Posted by crakjak

If the mountains are scattered how can they be everlasting?

The mountians ar kingdom powers and those kingdom powers being everlasting may be scattered from one group and given to another, hence in Daniel...

Dan 12:7

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to SCATTER the POWER of the holy people, all these things shall be FINISHED."

Mat 21:43-44

"Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be BROKEN: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will GRIND him to POWDER."

One group is chastised and the other group is pulverized.

Originally Posted by crakjak

Of course the reference to God certainly is everlasting. The "aionion" mountains are destroyed, therefore the words "everlasting and eternal" can denote limited and unlimited duration in the same passage, the difference to be determined by the subjected treated.

The power is still everlasting and continual, as the age does not cease but for a moment and then continues with the righteous who have accepted the promise of the Master.

Originally Posted by crakjak

For clarity let's start at the beginning; at creation, when all things were made by God. The scripture is clear, He began His work knowing full well about the fall of man and what was to come. This is very important to embrace. He had a plan already in place to redeem mankind, since Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Rev. 13.8)

He, who created all things, will "reconcile to Himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross" (Col. 1:20). This reconciliation or restoration of ALL things was foretold by God when He "spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets long age" (Acts 3:21). God has appointed His Son to be the "heir of ALL things" (Heb. 1:2) and in God's Son "shall ALL the nations be blessed" (Gal. 3:8).

Then I would add my signature line to this post:

We must keep in mind that those who enter into the restoration of ALL things will ONLY be the righteous who have been washed in the blood through the water way in Jesus name. Those who had rejected the message of Acts 2:38 will be hurled headlong into a lake of fire that holds everlasting destruction.

Thank you for your time in this thread.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by AGAPE

Revelation 14

6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 14:10-11

"The same shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for EVER and EVER: and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

If we take into consideration that in Revelation 14:10-11 (especially verse 11) we not only have the term "for ever and ever" but we have a time indication that is "NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT". This term tells the reader that the torment is not only everlasting but will continue in 24hr intervals for an unknown period of time.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by crakjak

This bolded portion sets the context of this discourse: The arrival of the kingdom of God, was the ministry of Jesus, Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand..." this clearly sets the time frame of Jesus' parable, so the separating of the "wheat and the tares" would logically be the destruction of Israel in 70 AD, when the righteous escaped the city and the wicked were destroyed. Again, Jesus is explaining the end of that age and not the end of our age.

Prove THAT part "sets the context" and changes the meaning of the rest of the context. It's you that says this is not literal and is parabolic language, when in fact it says Jesus is EXPLAINING a parable. The only way this verse can NOT mean what I said it does or mean what YOU say it does, is for you to say it's NOT literal and then re-interpret what the words are saying. That is a dangerous precedent my friend that turns the bible into a meaningless book that is subject to the whims of anyone and any doctrine by eisegesis. The verse in question does NOT say this is the end of the Old Covenant Jesus is speaking about. The Righteous shining as the sun are talking about the Saints.

The consummation of the Kingdom is at the "end" when Jesus delivers the Kingdom over to God the Father (I Cor. 15:24).

Has Jesus delivered the kingdom over to God the Father?

Jesus said in Matt: 13:43 "THEN the righteous will shine..., this shows that the things He had said before came before the righteous shine. Therefore, He is speaking of the end of the old covenant age, and not the end of the kingdom age. Oh, it is speaking of what Jesus says it is speaking of, it is just NOT speaking of what Praxeas says it is speaking.

Yes "THEN" refers to after what came before it. What came before it was seed sowing....good seed are the children of the kingdom. The field is the WORLD. The harvest is the end of THE age (note he could have just said Old Covenant). The angels gather those that are law breakers and cast them into fire. THEN The righteous shall shine....it's talking about the future when we will be glorified in Christ together

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Dan 12:3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

If I accept your point that he is not using parabolic language will you just consider my points of scirpture? Be blessed my friend.

I consider everything you say, just because I disagree and see the holes in it does not mean I don't. It's NOT "my point"...the text itself says clearly that Jesus is EXPLAINING a parable. Do you understand what that means?

A parable is a story that is used to tell or teach a greater meaning that often has hidden truths in it....until it is explained. To explain a parable is to reveal the hidden truths and make it apparent or clear...not hide it even more with MORE parabolic language. Jesus is NOT giving a parable here. He is giving an explanation

[AGAPE]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Rev 14:10-11

"The same shall drink of the wine of the WRATH OF GOD, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for EVER and EVER: and they have NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

If we take into consideration that in Revelation 14:10-11 (especially verse 11) we not only have the term "for ever and ever" but we have a time indication that is "NO REST DAY NOR NIGHT". This term tells the reader that the torment is not only everlasting but will continue in 24hr intervals for an unknown period of time.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

I agree with Bro Benincasa here.

Notice also that the holy angels and the Lamb will view this.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

CJ, the punishments that God performs upon His creation are two fold, the first is to the Wicked and that is eternal and everlasting, which means that they cannot be redeemed from that punishment once it has been handed out.

Henceforth the eternal, and everlasting punishment. The second is correction and chastisement to those God loves. The Proverbs explain how God's punishments work and we see a good example of this in the book of Daniel.

Dan 3:19-23

"Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated. And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace. Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of THE FIRE SLEW THOSE MEN that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and THEY HAVE NO HURT; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

The wicked are destroyed but the righteous are protected. The Egyptians are drowned in the Red Sea but the saints of God pass through the baptism with safety.

Pro 1:22-33

"How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear. When your fear cometh as desolation, and your DESTRUCTION cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. Then shall they call upon me, but I will NOT answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall NOT find me: For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall SLAY them, and the prosperity of fools shall DESTROY them. BUT whoso hearkeneth unto me shall DWELL SAFELY, and shall be QUIET from fear of evil."



Excuse me, but at first glance this above quote may sound correct but in the light of proper Biblical hermeneutics we can see that there are two distinct groups, one who are corrected through punishments and the others who are eternally punished without remedy.


In Jesus Name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Bro, I don't see how these passage support "endless torment", they are clearly examples of individual and national judgments. This is temporal destruction and in no way is in support of the final disposition of mankind. When you look at scripture thru the lens of tradition, you see death, and destruction, when you allow the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the ultimate purpose of God, then you can see that God is the victor, not just in some limited way, He defeats the purpose of the devil and completely brings an end to sin, evil and the curse.

His plan is from the foundation of the world, and He who created all things, will "reconcile to Himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of His cross. (Colossians 1:20).

God has given the Son "authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom He has given Him" (John 17:2). "The Father has given ALL things into the Son's hands" (John 3:35) and so "All flesh SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD: (Luke 3:6).

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by AGAPE

I agree with Bro Benincasa here.

Notice also that the holy angels and the Lamb will view this.

Give me a break, are you interperting this verse to mean that watching folks fry in "endless torture" is a spectator sport for angels and the Lord Jesus. This is such utter nonsensical understanding.

They are watching the fire of God burn evil, chaff and dross. They have no rest day or night until they surrender to the will and purpose of their Creator.

"...they will in no wise be released until they have paid the last penny."

[AGAPE]

yadayadayada

The holy angels have been silent (remember the book of Jude) while the "bad guys" have had there day
The Lamb was silent, but NOW "vengeance is mine saith the Lord"

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by AGAPE

yadayadayada
The holy angels have been silent (remember the book of Jude) while the "bad guys" have had there day
The Lamb was silent, but NOW "vengeance is mine saith the Lord"

About says it all, doesn't it!