Facts Found~The Early Church and Standards~

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

correct but love for God flows to the other areas in which we separate ourselves according to his purpose. Clothing reflects many areas and to say it doesn't is simply ignoring the obvious. God desires order in all things and clothing reflects such order. clothing does reflect love from the heart!

Put your tape measure away, Legalist. You're missing it.

My clothing isn't separated to God -- my heart is. I may choose to respect myself and honor my brother, but that's a far-cry from the programmed minds of thousands of mini-legalists like you that only see in terms of clothing. It's hard-wired in your brains.

Regarding clothing reflecting order, and clothing reflecting love. I think you are taking liberties (ironic) there. The fact that we are talking about clothing in the context of one's relationship with God feels creepy to me. The fact is, heart problems can surface in clothing, diet, time spent on something, language used, attitudes felt, imaginations unleashed, actions taken, etc.... A heart issue is a heart issue. To single out clothing and make it as big a deal as Legalists like yourself have done is... well... legalism. It has suffocated the weightier matters. Elder brother syndrome.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by sandie

Clothing can reflect some things: one's status, income, culture for sure.
But, love from the heart. That's almost too silly to write.
Jesus said to love Him and love others. He never wraped that up within clothing and to say otherwise is truly "ignoring the obvious".

sure it does. That's because you do not look at the whole and have limited perceptions. It says I will not make myself a stumbling stone before my brother. It says I will not set myself above them but serve them. I wil not glorify myself but God. The early christia church clearly reflected this mentality in casting off worldly enticement. That is love toward your neighbor! Also to set yourself apart distinct man from women shows love toward God's purpose in creation.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

because clothing is a extension of attitude. To say we don't express ourselves by clothing is really ignoring the point.

Even saying as much as you are about something like clothing seems to me to e a bit odd. I mean, clothing?

To also say NO responsibility was placed in clothing is also ignoring the point.

No one sees NO responsibility.

GOd cares about every aspect of our life. Does clothing save? Of course not but that doesn't mean it doesn't matter and we just do whatever we want. Holiness is reflecting God's will and order for our lives. to say distinction in clothing does not reflect setting apart.... sorry but that ignores any common sense.

Clothing is such a minimal part of holiness, I cannot begin to describe it. Like I said, one has to be conditioned to place a high priority upon it to the degree it has been put in conservative circles known for standards of dress. How many times did the bible speak of it in any sense in contrast to the masses of scriptures in the bible? Indeed it is a point of common sense.

Originally Posted by Sandie

Clothing can reflect some things: one's status, income, culture for sure.
But, love from the heart. That's almost too silly to write.
Jesus said to love Him and love others. He never wraped that up within clothing and to say otherwise is truly "ignoring the obvious".

Exactly.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Put your tape measure away, Legalist. You're missing it.

My clothing isn't separated to God -- my heart is.

seems your missing it. EVERYTHING is separated to God. it's not your life anymore.

I may choose to respect myself and honor my brother, but that's a far-cry from the programmed minds of thousands of mini-legalists like you that only see in terms of clothing. It's hard-wired in your brains.

who said in ONLY terms of clothing? Seems you have a hard wired thinking on this and don't listen to the point but your own version of what is said.

Regarding clothing reflecting order, and clothing reflecting love. I think you are taking liberties (ironic) there. The fact that we are talking about clothing in the context of one's relationship with God feels creepy to me. The fact is, heart problems can surface in clothing, diet, time spent on something, language used, attitudes felt, imaginations unleashed, actions taken, etc.... A heart issue is a heart issue. To single out clothing and make it as big a deal as Legalists like yourself have done is... well... legalism. It has suffocated the weightier matters. Elder brother syndrome.

If you can't understand the OT principle that all thing is unto God then you need to pray about it.

[sandie]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

sure it does. That's because you do not look at the whole and have limited perceptions. It says I will not make myself a stumbling stone before my brother. It says I will not set myself above them but serve them. I wil not glorify myself but God. The early christia church clearly reflected this mentality in casting off worldly enticement. That is love toward your neighbor! Also to set yourself apart distinct man from women shows love toward God's purpose in creation.

If you're talking about modesty, then yes...we surely should not make ourselves a stumbling stone. However, to add to that, is placing an un-due and unscriptural burden on people.
Women don't dress like men and men don't dress like women in society. Those that do such things are a different topic.

I had a pastor many years ago. There was a woman who began attending our church, she was brand new, she was at a service where the HG was moving. She was wearing slacks, but she was very modest at the same time. He told her to go home and dress like a lady.
She never returned.

The idea that how we dress is tied up in how we love is an extremly sad and unbiblical concept.
But, satan loves nothing better than to tie God's beloved in knots over sensless things.

[mfblume]

You know, folks, those who emphasize standards, though offkey due to that in and of itself, will simply not listen to those who do not. The very point in making it an issue of emphasis itself proves this. If a person will go that far in making it emphasis, surely they will not listen to any concept that lessens its emphasis in their minds. THAT is common sense.



I think I've said too much about it myself in contrast to the little attention it actually deserves.

[sandie]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You know, folks, those who emphasize standards, though offkey due to that in and of itself, will simply not listen to those who do not. The very point in making it an issue of emphasis itself proves this. If a person will go that far in making it emphasis, surely they will not listen to any concept that lessens its emphasis in their minds. THAT is common sense.



I think I've said too much about it myself in contrast to the little attention it actually deserves.

I think it's a stronghold.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Even saying as much as you are about something like clothing seems to me to e a bit odd. I mean, clothing?

yeah... I mean the attitude the world shows to "present yourself" "glorify yourself" seems odd doesn't it. Yeah... I mean no focus on making YOU the object by anyone.

No one sees NO responsibility.

hmm seeems you do a good job of making it meaningless.

Clothing is such a minimal part of holiness, I cannot begin to describe it. Like I said, one has to be conditioned to place a high priority upon it to the degree it has been put in conservative circles known for standards of dress. How many times did the bible speak of it in any sense in contrast to the masses of scriptures in the bible? Indeed it is a point of common sense.



Exactly.

Minimal or not it still matters as does every expression in our lives to God.

[mfblume]

Case in point. Meaningless? lol I guess if we exaggerate the bible from its balance on the issue, then the same can be done for other people's words.

I agree, Sandie.

[mfblume]

At any rate, Pastor Keith, THAT IS AN AWESOME confirmation of the issue that love for one another and not clothing is the real witness to the world.

Originally Posted by Pastor Thanks for presenting what confirms the Lord's words saying it LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER -- in and of itself -- that shows the world we are saved and not clothing like so many have erringly proposed.

Keith;648399

Have you ever been curious how the First Church regarded standards, holiness and living in a pagan culture?

Well this is a testimony by a Disciple of Polycarp named Mathetes, who most likely wrote this between 100-140AD.

I think to be an eye opener and will likely change your perspective on how the early church related to and lived in a pagan world. I highlighted some parts that I thought would be of interest to our diverse forum.

It was titled "The Manner of Christians"

For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. The course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive men; nor do they, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines. But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking [281] method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as do all [others]; they beget children; but they do not destroy their offspring. [282] They have a common table, but not a common bed. [283] They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. [284] They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. [285] They obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the laws by their lives. They love all men, and are persecuted by all. They are unknown and condemned; they are put to death, and restored to life. [286] They are poor, yet make many rich; [287] they are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonoured, and yet in their very dishonour are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are justified; they are reviled, and bless; [288] they are insulted, and repay the insult with honour; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are assailed by the Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred.