Bishop G E Patterson - fussing thread (see other thread for nice things)

Originally Posted by Timmy

Oops, my bad.

OK, let me ask you this. You are 100% certain that you have the correct formula for salvation, straight from Scripture, clear as day. Right? Never mind that there are some who disagree (they must be evil folks, not to accept such a clear command from the Lord). You have it right, and they have it wrong. Fine.

Suppose on your first day in Heaven, you are given the job, the honor, of manning The Gate for a day. They give you a really nice laptop computer that has all the information you need about each candidate's life. The exact wording used at their baptism, the full history of their life, including the state of their hearts! (I said it was a nice laptop!)

Now, before you get started, Peter himself starts to tell you what to look for. Do you stop him and say "No, that's OK. I already know. Read it, understand it, no need to repeat it."?

Peter says, "Oh, good for you! Alright, then, I'll be back in a few hours to check on things."

First candidate. Your hand is on The Switch. (It has an "Up" position and a "Down" position. It's in "Neutral" for now.) Looking over this guy's records, you see that everything is in order. Oopsie! Except for one thing. The preacher that baptized the poor guy said, according to the audio, "...in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit". Ah, so close.

DOWN!

Yes, this is an impossible, ridiculous hypothetical situation. But, just asking: are you really that certain you have it right?

But in fact, it's not so hypothetical. By preaching what you are preaching, everyone who believes you is trusting you! Trusting that you got it right. Resting their own eternal lives on what you have taught them.

Nervous? No? Not even a little??

Timmy,

No, to be quite honest, I'm not even a 'little' nervous. I have a command from on high to 'rightly divide the word of truth' and see what the Bible says about matters of salvation. I rest assured in my deepest heart of hearts that the Acts 2:38 message is the right way or I would be something else!

As for the whole 'Peter step back and let me make the decisions here' stuff you were trying to say... I have no clue how to make sense out of it. If you're saying that I imply to know more than the Apostle I would refute that vehemently; I take my instructions from him!

How is it that you come to enjoy an Apostolic forum without being Apostolic? Again, the ground level of being an Apostolic is the New Birth of Acts 2:38 and it's verified by the rest of the scriptures.

The one thing that those who argue the whole 'are you saying Matthew 28:19 isn't acceptable' and 'I think people can be saved without the New Birth' are missing is that God is Sovereign. He makes the rules (yes, rules) and not us. I find it somewhere on the fragile border of funny and sad that anybody would dare stand in the face of God and say, "Well, I know what you said but this is what I think..."

As to whether Patterson was baptized in Jesus Name I don't know. Most likely he was filled with the Holy Ghost at one point. But the 'fruits' by which we know them tell us that if he was sold to the Apostolic message he sure forgot to hand it to his organization.

[SDG]

How is it that you come to enjoy an Apostolic forum without being Apostolic? Again, the ground level of being an Apostolic is the New Birth of Acts 2:38 and it's verified by the rest of the scriptures.

If by New Birth and Apostolic you mean the PAJC view of Acts 2:38 ... then about half of us would not fit your definition, Elder .....

but I thank God .... I'm more Apostolic than .....................???????????

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

One would have to subscribe to dispensationalism to make your claim Steadfast ... their are many God-fearing Apostolics that don't

Be that as it may, you have still tip toed around the questions asked long before your statements were imposed: Can ANYBODY be saved outside of obedience to Acts 2:38?

Again, I've made it clear that that is just the entrance level of salvation and not a 'cure all' that means nothing else matters. Anybody with any maturity knows that.

I still say that, according to scripture, one MUST obey the New Birth to be saved. And, as another stated, you can't promote a false doctrine and be saved. That is a huge chasm in the whole process of being 'Apostolic' while leading false doctrine without an attempt to bring truth to them.

I cannot, even in all of scripture, understand being Apostolic myself and then promoting a false doctrine without paying an eternal price.

[SDG]

Sometimes I wonder whose fruit we're talking about ... whose fruit is on display? ... our interpretations of scripture and doctrine ... or HIS FRUIT ....


We are just branches .... He is the Vine. Bishop Patterson displayed His fruit because he received His Spirit ....

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Be that as it may, you have still tip toed around the questions asked long before your statements were imposed: Can ANYBODY be saved outside of obedience to Acts 2:38?

Again, I've made it clear that that is just the entrance level of salvation and not a 'cure all' that means nothing else matters. Anybody with any maturity knows that.

I still say that, according to scripture, one MUST obey the New Birth to be saved. And, as another stated, you can't promote a false doctrine and be saved. That is a huge chasm in the whole process of being 'Apostolic' while leading false doctrine without an attempt to bring truth to them.

I cannot, even in all of scripture, understand being Apostolic myself and then promoting a false doctrine without paying an eternal price.

Would not preaching the standards/holiness doctrine as other conservative Apostolics also disqualify one from heaven since it would be considered "false"?

Or perhaps being an Apostolic Sabbatarian would split the gates of hell???

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

As for the whole 'Peter step back and let me make the decisions here' stuff you were trying to say... I have no clue how to make sense out of it. If you're saying that I imply to know more than the Apostle I would refute that vehemently; I take my instructions from him!

Not at all. I was just wondering if you are certain that you understood his instructions (Peter's instructions, as recorded in Acts) so well that you would not need to hear them again, perhaps clarified and explained in more detail, before you assume your duties as gate keeper. So well that you would confidently throw the switch to "down" if the wrong words were spoken at someone's baptism.

Just trying to understand.

Oh my! I just had a thought. What if they gave the job to a Morman, on the day I arrive?

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

If by New Birth and Apostolic you mean the PAJC view of Acts 2:38 ... then about half of us would not fit your definition, Elder .....

but I thank God .... I'm more Apostolic than .....................???????????

Sorry, I don't buy into the whole 'baptism is optional' theory. I think to walk in salvation you have to walk in obedience and that mandates baptism as well.

So, if you think you're saved at receiving the Holy Ghost then I'll let you dwell in that 'tedious' place without argument for now... but do you espouse the idea that you don't have to go on to baptism if you intend to walk with God?

Again, you won't answer the 'can you be saved outside of Acts 2:38' question.

Originally Posted by Thad

The Greatest Leader since their founder, Bishop Mason, Bishop GE Patterson Passed away today.

I really enjoyed his music, visiting his church and even his preaching

But why are there soooooooooooo many COGIC churches (most of them storefront) in Buffalo?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Sorry, I don't buy into the whole 'baptism is optional' theory. I think to walk in salvation you have to walk in obedience and that mandates baptism as well.

So, if you think you're saved at receiving the Holy Ghost then I'll let you dwell in that 'tedious' place without argument for now... but do you espouse the idea that you don't have to go on to baptism if you intend to walk with God?

Again, you won't answer the 'can you be saved outside of Acts 2:38' question.

Sir ... can someone be saved ... prior to completeing THE 3 SEQUENTIAL STEPS ... let's say because their life is cut short? This has been our perennial question .... hasn't it???

Originally Posted by Timmy

Not at all. I was just wondering if you are certain that you understood his instructions (Peter's instructions, as recorded in Acts) so well that you would not need to hear them again, perhaps clarified and explained in more detail, before you assume your duties as gate keeper. So well that you would confidently throw the switch to "down" if the wrong words were spoken at someone's baptism.

Just trying to understand.

Oh my! I just had a thought. What if they gave the job to a Morman, on the day I arrive?

You sincerely are out there in left field. None of us will be pulling switches with trap doors to damnation. We will, however, be judged out of the books and I'm confident those 66 books tell us how to be saved... and I walk accordingly.

Those Books we call the Bible will be the ultimate judge of our 'rightness' or 'wrongness'. How can anyone insert their 'opinion' contrary to God's Word and feel safe?