Why men hate church

[Aquila]

I was thinking... if my memory serves me correctly... in early America there used to be something referred to as the "rule of thumb". It wasn't a formal law... but supposedly a man had the right to discipline his wife and children with a stick as long as it wasn't any thicker than his thumb.

While I don't advocate beatings and abuse. The premise that would allow such a thing in at a cultural level demonstrates a cultural respect for male authority.

My point is this... authority isn't authority unless it can be used and enforced. Sadly... male headship in America, be it in the church or at home is merely an illusion that only applies when the parties involved agree to allow it to apply. "Hey, I know. Let's get married and play headship!" lol

[renee819]

Originally Posted by Adam

The problem with the husband calling the police to ask the wife's friend to leave is that usually (and I think by law) the police will side with the women. All they have to do is say that he raised his voice, was angry, slammed a door, made them feel uncomfortable in any way, and he is asked to leave his own home. If a woman does the same thing, it is viewed as being under duress with the husband somehow causing it to happen, or as a kind of "self defense". Police will haul away a woman, however, if she succeeds in verbally "pushing the officer's button" or strikes the officer.

I really like this thread because it deals with a lot of the issues I had to deal with in regards to my marriage of 23 years that ended several months ago. I agree with a lot of what Aquilla is posting here.

Yes, that's probably true. We live in an upside down, world.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I was thinking... if my memory serves me correctly... in early America there used to be something referred to as the "rule of thumb". It wasn't a formal law... but supposedly a man had the right to discipline his wife and children with a stick as long as it wasn't any thicker than his thumb.

While I don't advocate beatings and abuse. The premise that would allow such a thing in at a cultural level demonstrates a cultural respect for male authority.

My point is this... authority isn't authority unless it can be used and enforced. Sadly... male headship in America, be it in the church or at home is merely an illusion that only applies when the parties involved agree to allow it to apply. "Hey, I know. Let's get married and play headship!" lol

Now your back to that 'Christian domestic discipline' thing again lol.

A qualification for an elder is that he 'rule his house well', otherwise he cannot be expected to 'rule the house of God'.

So then anyone in oversight of the local church must have a demonstrated track record of effective leadership in his own home. If a man wants to lead, he has to start with himself and his immediate family. He has to learn how to get Honey to properly submit - willingly. And that does not always require 'the rod', it more often than not requires an ability to persuade using both positive and negative motivations. It also requires a lot of prayer and self deiscipline, leading by example, etc.

A supervisor is not expected to literally BEAT his subordinates into submission. A father, while it may be necessary to spank a child, should be able to progress rather quickly beyond the rod and into other, more mature forms of motivation and persuasion. Leaders responsible for managing people must learn how and must be skilled in the ability of getting people to willingly agree to follow your leadership. Leadership 101.

Also, people have GOT to get back to an understanding of marriage and proper roles. We must teach our children these things, and model these things for them in our own lives, because nobody else (for the most part) is going to do it.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I was thinking... if my memory serves me correctly... in early America there used to be something referred to as the "rule of thumb". It wasn't a formal law... but supposedly a man had the right to discipline his wife and children with a stick as long as it wasn't any thicker than his thumb.

While I don't advocate beatings and abuse. The premise that would allow such a thing in at a cultural level demonstrates a cultural respect for male authority.

My point is this... authority isn't authority unless it can be used and enforced. Sadly... male headship in America, be it in the church or at home is merely an illusion that only applies when the parties involved agree to allow it to apply. "Hey, I know. Let's get married and play headship!" lol

That's why there should be much more teaching on these things in the church. But how can that be, when sometimes the Pastors wife rules the roost.? Or some of the best tithe payers are at fault?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your wife is sweeter than you are?

Not really. I honestly think that it's because she is a woman. I've seen her work out late payments for various bills... the landlord... etc. I think that it's either sympathy for a "lady in distress" or ... in the case of the landlord... he thinks she's a "cutie".

There was a study on the effect of male voices and female voices on the male brain. When a male speaks to a male... the image centers of the brain activate. It's like we can visualize what's being said to us. However, when a woman speaks the centers of the brain that activate are those associated with complex sound, such as classical music.

What are the implications? If a woman is attractive or appealing a man can listen to her all evening all dreamy eyed like her every sound is music.

Or... a woman can speak to a man and if he doesn't focus his attention and purposefully TRY to picture and think about what she is saying... whatever she is saying is like a radio playing in the background. lol

I have a book about the physiological differences between men and women. We're vastly different. The way women's brains work... they rock word problems more than men on average. However, men rock geometry... because we can visualize the angles and cuts. Men have more muscle mass... and the adrenaline used to power the male is greater than that in a female. It's like asking... what takes more fule... a Volkswagon Beetle or an M1 Abrams Tank? The tank. Thus walking around the house cleaning can indeed make a man far more tired than a woman. Unless there is an element of danger to boost adrenaline. Also, women have abundant estrogen. Estrogen helps them sleep. In fact, it helps women achieve REM and deeper levels of sleep rather quickly. However, for the male to get down to that level of sleep it takes roughly 1 to two hours. So... if a man and woman go to bed and sleep eight hours... she'll feel like she got 8 hours of rest. He'll feel like he got 6. She thinks he is a big baby wanting more sleep and is lazy. Ladies... why does he fall asleep at the drop of a hat after work or being out and about all day when something needs to be done??? I'll tell you... because he's physiologically wiped out. Unless... again... there is an element of danger or something to get testosterone and adrenaline pumping. If there isn't... he's going to be grouchy and tired and you'll go through the rutine of saying, "Why are you so tired??? You got 7 hours of sleep last night, we laid down at 10!" Well... that was 7 hours of sleep for you. It may have only been 5 for him.

There's all kinds of differences that are physiological or biological. Women sometimes ride us like we're equals. We're not. We're tanks. Silver-Backs that protect the tribe... we demand a lot fo fuel and a lot of rest. Our brains also function differently when contemplating problems. Women easily see interdependent relationships. So they can plan how to get the kids up, breakfast made, kids off to school, hubby to work, get kids from school and to soccar practice, etc. Men visualize thought. It takes our brains longer to develop the images and to connect them. Ever wonder why you ask a question and he seems to stare off into space and come up with ideas that you dont' find workable because of a specific factor? That's why. Now he has to reprocess the images with the factor he left out... but by then... you've already resolved the issue by processing all the inderdependent relationships. lol

Your man isn't stupid... he's a man. A man.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now your back to that 'Christian domestic discipline' thing again lol.

A qualification for an elder is that he 'rule his house well', otherwise he cannot be expected to 'rule the house of God'.

So then anyone in oversight of the local church must have a demonstrated track record of effective leadership in his own home. If a man wants to lead, he has to start with himself and his immediate family. He has to learn how to get Honey to properly submit - willingly. And that does not always require 'the rod', it more often than not requires an ability to persuade using both positive and negative motivations. It also requires a lot of prayer and self deiscipline, leading by example, etc.

A supervisor is not expected to literally BEAT his subordinates into submission. A father, while it may be necessary to spank a child, should be able to progress rather quickly beyond the rod and into other, more mature forms of motivation and persuasion. Leaders responsible for managing people must learn how and must be skilled in the ability of getting people to willingly agree to follow your leadership. Leadership 101.

Also, people have GOT to get back to an understanding of marriage and proper roles. We must teach our children these things, and model these things for them in our own lives, because nobody else (for the most part) is going to do it.

I agree to a lot of what you're saying.

I want to consider something though... it's only been within the past century that a more liberal notion of male authority has come into the home and church. 300 hundred years ago... a man would have been expected to "straighten" his wife or children out. And it was something shameful if he didn't. Even some black and white classic movies show men slapping their frantic and irrational wives. Today... that would be a major no no.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by esaias

now your back to that 'christian domestic discipline' thing again lol.

A qualification for an elder is that he 'rule his house well', otherwise he cannot be expected to 'rule the house of god'.

So then anyone in oversight of the local church must have a demonstrated track record of effective leadership in his own home. If a man wants to lead, he has to start with himself and his immediate family. He has to learn how to get honey to properly submit - willingly. And that does not always require 'the rod', it more often than not requires an ability to persuade using both positive and negative motivations. It also requires a lot of prayer and self deiscipline, leading by example, etc.

A supervisor is not expected to literally beat his subordinates into submission. A father, while it may be necessary to spank a child, should be able to progress rather quickly beyond the rod and into other, more mature forms of motivation and persuasion. Leaders responsible for managing people must learn how and must be skilled in the ability of getting people to willingly agree to follow your leadership. Leadership 101.

Also, people have got to get back to an understanding of marriage and proper roles. We must teach our children these things, and model these things for them in our own lives, because nobody else (for the most part) is going to do it.

amen amen and amen

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I agree to a lot of what you're saying.

I want to consider something though... it's only been within the past century that a more liberal notion of male authority has come into the home and church. 300 hundred years ago... a man would have been expected to "straighten" his wife or children out. And it was something shameful if he didn't. Even some black and white classic movies show men slapping their frantic and irrational wives. Today... that would be a major no no.

There is a reason for that, and it ain't pretty.

Our society has been intentionally subverted.

'Babylonian captivity'. One of the first things Babylon did with captured Israelite males is castrate them.

Nothing new under the sun, just a more high-tech way of doing it.

[MarieA27]

I think the problem is, is that people in these churches aren't truly taught their true roles as befitting to them according to the bible.. The men are not taught his role as a man, as a husband, and nor is the women taught her role as a woman in the church, as a wife. It seems that the women aren't taught how they're suppose to honor and respect their husbands even as with Sara and Abraham, wherein she called him lord (showing her reverence of him).And the man isn't truly taught how he is to lay down his life for his family as Christ did for the church. Also in this society, if the women are taught the biblical principles, they'll balk at it, and say that's old fashioned, that whatever the man can do, I can do, and that we're equal, and he has no right to be over me etc., And a lot of things seem to almost always go to the extreme. You'll either have the men having just about no authority, with the women acting as head of the household, and the men are only that in name. Or you'll have the women totally submissive, and the men acting almost as dictators, showing little care and compassion. It seems that it's rare for things to be in the middle, and balanced.

Also another thing, the main thing that is lacking, is the teaching of the true respect and fear of the Lord, and to do all things as if you're doing it unto Him. If you're conscience that God is looking and watching you, and judging you in your actions, you'll be more conscience of your actions and you'll act accordingly, not only because you love and respect your husband or your wife, but because you love God and you're living so as to not displease Him.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

There is a reason for that, and it ain't pretty.

Our society has been intentionally subverted.

'Babylonian captivity'. One of the first things Babylon did with captured Israelite males is castrate them.

Nothing new under the sun, just a more high-tech way of doing it.

True that my brother.

Maybe society needs a Men's Liberation Movement.