Moving "forward"?????

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Men like LB are not the voice of the UPCI ... but as vocal as he is ... he is doing his best to become it.

He has a huge following. He has become THE Voice for the UC movement.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

bishopnl- do you not agree there is a definate spirit and worship of sports and all therein in America today? (better go there and lump NASCAR in this too)

Originally Posted by bishopnl

I think there is a certain segment of sports fan that elevates it above it's proper place in terms of priorities.

I also think there are certain segment of shoppers who do the same thing when it comes to material objects they buy at the mall. But that doesn't mean that shopping is "the god of this world" anymore than sports is. Anything can be a god to someone if they make it such.

I don't know if I could say the same spirit in shopping as sports is found.

Then again, there is that there Evangelist Booth at GC! :sshhh

Having sports "gods" earning millions while being caught in any manner of immoral activity while off the field is one of the reasons I have long taught against sports. This does not mean I have never a game of basketball or baseball in the past.

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

But Friend, I think where you go wrong is when you call someone a hypocrite for not following all of the nonprohibited items that are listed. I agree there should be an attempt at some conformity, but not at the expense of pastoral preferences and individual Christian liberties.

Good thread Bro!

Point taken.

Let me try to say it differently. There are those that may vote against tele. in Oct for the sake of unity. NOt because they believe its the right vote personally. Does that make sense?

I also sincerely believe that when it comes to shorts, movie theatres, etc etc. that there are ministers that base there beliefs 99.9% on what Bro Jimie Joe Presbyter/official/popular name preacher says down the street. They don't think its heaven or hell but to be included in the seating arrangement at camp meetin they conform.

according to Webster.....Hypocrisy is, playing a part on the stage. Hypocrite is, a person who acts in contradiction to his stated beliefs or feelings.

How, especially now , can we say there is no division? God does not author confusion or division. What about ONE mind ONE accord One spirit?

[Kutless]

Originally Posted by bishopnl

I figured that would come up.

But according to others that used to post on Faithchild (Wally, ChicagoPastor, etc.), pastors that I know personally, and by the very fact that headquarters accepts them, the position of the UPC is that it is allowable to note "exception" upon signing the affirmation statement, and it will still be accepted by headquarters.

In fact, Wally told me that right after the Westburg Resolution, Nathaniel Urshan publicly stated that it was an acceptable practice to note that you were willing to sign the affirmation statement "with exception" and that headquarters would still accept it and allow ministers to continue to hold license. And others have verified that as well. And I personally know ministers who have practiced that for years, and they continue to hold license in the organization, and their statement is accepted.

So if the UPC is willing to accept a statement signed "with exception," I'm not going to quibble over it. And in my opinion, as long as you are noting that you will not preach everything listed in the Articles of Faith, and headquarters accepts your continued affirmation anyway, then you can't be inconsistent.

PP can you confirm this?

[bishopnl]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

I don't know if I could say the same spirit in shopping as sports is found.

Then again, there is that there Evangelist Booth at GC! :sshhh

Having sports "gods" earning millions while being caught in any manner of immoral activity while off the field is one of the reasons I have long taught against sports. This does not mean I have never a game of basketball or baseball in the past.

Some preachers earn obscene amounts of money and receive an inordinate amount of "fame" in their own right, and then get caught in any manner of immoral activity out of the pulpit. Are you going to preach against preachers?



I respect anyone's right to preach whatever they want. That doesn't mean I think it's right or biblical. I don't go to games because of player's financial earnings or their moral standing, nor do I really understand why someone would make that a point of contention when it comes to spiritual teaching. My banker may not live the kind of lifestyle I approve of either, but I still put my money in his bank. My grocer may not do what I think he ought to, but I still buy groceries from his store.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by bishopnl

Some preachers earn obscene amounts of money and receive an inordinate amount of "fame" in their own right, and then get caught in any manner of immoral activity out of the pulpit. Are you going to preach against preachers?



I respect anyone's right to preach whatever they want. That doesn't mean I think it's right or biblical. I don't go to games because of player's financial earnings or their moral standing, nor do I really understand why someone would make that a point of contention when it comes to spiritual teaching. My banker may not live the kind of lifestyle I approve of either, but I still put my money in his bank. My grocer may not do what I think he ought to, but I still buy groceries from his store.

Apparently we have an Apple in one point of view and a kumquat in another here.

Preachers engaging in immorality are then sinners and need to find new vocation.

[bishopnl]

So are you saying that when athletes earn lots of money and engage in immorality, we preach against their vocation, but when preachers do the same, we tell them they need to get a new vocation?

:? It makes me no sense.

The fact is that ballplayers engaging in immorality or earning millions doesn't have one iota to do with whether or not a Christian should attend or participate in organized sporting events. Its simply irrelevant. Besides, a good many ballplayers have solid families and do a lot of charitable works. Of course that doesn't have anything to do with whether we should watch them play ball either, but as long as we're going to make their lifestyles a matter of contention...

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by bishopnl

So are you saying that when athletes earn lots of money and engage in immorality, we preach against their vocation, but when preachers do the same, we tell them they need to get a new vocation?

:? It makes me no sense.

The fact is that ballplayers engaging in immorality or earning millions doesn't have one iota to do with whether or not a Christian should attend or participate in organized sporting events. Its simply irrelevant. Besides, a good many ballplayers have solid families and do a lot of charitable works. Of course that doesn't have anything to do with whether we should watch them play ball either, but as long as we're going to make their lifestyles a matter of contention...

No I am saying preachers engaging in immorality should not be consider preachers.

I still see a spirit in sports that has overwhelmed other aspects of our society. From the amount of money spent on arenas and salary to the time spent, there are arguments all over the place to guard against "worship." My step-Father knew shoe sizes and all other worthless trivia for his "stars."

[bishopnl]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

No I am saying preachers engaging in immorality should not be consider preachers.

I still see a spirit in sports that has overwhelmed other aspects of our society. From the amount of money spent on arenas and salary to the time spent, there are arguments all over the place to guard against "worship." My step-Father knew shoe sizes and all other worthless trivia for his "stars."

Hmmm...well, again, I don't think that merits prohibitions against either participating or watching someone else play sports. There are plenty of areas that are "worshipped" as much as organized sports are, and yet you never hear about them because sports is the easy mark. It's funny...in more rural areas of the country, more people miss church for deer hunting than they do for baseball games...but when's the last time you heard a preacher pick on deer hunting and tell people they can't go period b/c some people misplace it in their list of priorities?

The fact is that sports is abused by some people, and not by others. The people who abuse it should either get it under control or not participate, but it simply does not mean that no one should participate/watch organize sports.

I'm not out to change anyone's mind. But I sincerely disagree with prohibitions against sports, because I don't think they are consistent with either biblical ideals or common sense. But that's just me.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Men like LB are not the voice of the UPCI ... but as vocal as he is ... he is doing his best to become it.

Originally Posted by Kutless

Point taken.

Let me try to say it differently. There are those that may vote against tele. in Oct for the sake of unity. NOt because they believe its the right vote personally. Does that make sense?

I also sincerely believe that when it comes to shorts, movie theatres, etc etc. that there are ministers that base there beliefs 99.9% on what Bro Jimie Joe Presbyter/official/popular name preacher says down the street. They don't think its heaven or hell but to be included in the seating arrangement at camp meetin they conform.

according to Webster.....Hypocrisy is, playing a part on the stage. Hypocrite is, a person who acts in contradiction to his stated beliefs or feelings.

How, especially now , can we say there is no division? God does not author confusion or division. What about ONE mind ONE accord One spirit?

There is huge division right now. I think most everyone agrees with you. I also agree that with the bolded part of your post, but that is the way of the world. People always follow people.

For instance, AM finally speaking out will sway some lemmings to vote for the resolution. That is not wrong, just sad that people are unable to form an opinion independent of political manipulation.

My choosing to stay in the org, even though I am finding more and more that I disagree with on a daily basis does not make me a hypocrite. It simply says I am willing to deal with some issues in the hopes of achieving a greater harvest. There may come a time when I cannot maintain integrity and stay. I'm not quite there yet.