The State of the UPC

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

You're right, and this is a big problem. There's not much exploration of scripture; more of just "this is what you must believe."

The sad part is there is not much difference in the knowledge base between the clergy and laity. The unspoken philosophy has been "if we can keep our youth within the church's 4 walls we will keep them". The stressing of 'not of the world' to the exclusion of the fact of being 'in the world'. Kind of a monastic movement. A denial of the Lordship of Christ.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

You're right, and this is a big problem. There's not much exploration of scripture; more of just "this is what you must believe."

It was the same scenario in our conservative Catholic home. When I turned 18, I was out of there. The reality is, I had to find God for myself. I was living my parents religion. Some of my friends stayed faithful and some of us didn't. It isn't an issue for only conservative Apostolics, IMO.

You can give out scripture and explain it all day long, but at some point, each child/person has to have their personal epiphany.

And as much as I've heard stories of Bible School antics, it isn't much different from secular college. Kids gain independence and they test. Sometimes they step over the boundaries - it is because they can.

But wherever they land, we just want them to believe in God. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." That's all we have on our side. Well, that and a loving and merciful God.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

It was the same scenario in our conservative Catholic home. When I turned 18, I was out of there. The reality is, I had to find God for myself. I was living my parents religion. Some of my friends stayed faithful and some of us didn't. It isn't an issue for only conservative Apostolics, IMO.

You can give out scripture and explain it all day long, but at some point, each child/person has to have their personal epiphany.

And as much as I've heard stories of Bible School antics, it isn't much different from secular college. Kids gain independence and they test. Sometimes they step over the boundaries - it is because they can.

But wherever they land, we just want them to believe in God. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." That's all we have on our side. Well, that and a loving and merciful God.

[Charnock]

[QUOTE=SOUNWORTHY;1027462]

Originally Posted by Charnock

No, I wouldn't.

But that's just my opinion.

I see a lot of "fervor" among men who are left-leaning. More than I've ever seen before. I have no idea what is emboldening them, but they are walking away in droves.[/QUOTE]

An idiot could figure that out.....SATAN Like he has most of you poor lost souls on this forum!!

Hey, have you shaved that beard yet?

[noeticknight]

I can generally agree with you on the above statements excluding the bolded portion. I’m not sure what age threshold you have in mind which would make compromising “one’s views in deference to another” impossible?

Ahh..somewhere around here our thoughts must have diverged into two separate tracks. I see now that you were offering reasons (inconsistency, etc.) for the alleged developing interest in the WPF groups. I suppose I deviated somewhat and was referring to those youth in general who are drawing back from fellowships promoting an overall inconsistent religious dogma.

I guess I find it a bit confusing that the UPCI is not being referred to in the same category as the WPF. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the majority of the WPF comprised of former UPCI? Aren’t their doctrines and religious views about 99.9% the same? Hence my detour to ruminating about the larger exodus of young folks away from the UPCI affiliated churches. It would be ironic to me that young men are flocking to the WPF for more “consistency” in doctrine, unless we’re discussing the enforcement aspect of it.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by noeticknight

Ahh..somewhere around here our thoughts must have diverged into two separate tracks. I see now that you were offering reasons (inconsistency, etc.) for the alleged developing interest in the WPF groups. I suppose I deviated somewhat and was referring to those youth in general who are drawing back from fellowships promoting an overall inconsistent religious dogma.

I guess I find it a bit confusing that the UPCI is not being referred to in the same category as the WPF. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the majority of the WPF comprised of former UPCI? Aren’t their doctrines and religious views about 99.9% the same? Hence my detour to ruminating about the larger exodus of young folks away from the UPCI affiliated churches. It would be ironic to me that young men are flocking to the WPF for more “consistency” in doctrine, unless we’re discussing the enforcement aspect of it.

Yes, they are.

If there is movement toward the WPF, it's exaggerated, propaganda and fear, driving people from UPCI to WPF.

They are closer than kissing cousins. They are full-blood brothers. Twin brothers.

[A.W. Bowman]

I knew of a young man who left that church and, let's just say he didn't fare well with the lack of boundaries. Now, you could argue that he didn't fare well with boundaries because he'd never been left to his own devices before, but regardless--he needed those fences, and outside of them he floundered. He lost his ministry, his marriage and his Christianity.

A note on perspective: It is taught in many churches that once one abandons the pastoral standards relating to holiness, it will not be long before that person will become a 'backslider', or even lost to God.

Consider, this view point places one's salvation in their ability (willingness) to adhere to a set of religious laws of conduct developed and established by men, albeit derived from some biblical passages. If one cannot or will not submit to the church/organizational/pastoral rules, their salvation is either in doubt or they are even judged as lost.

This mindset, however, leaves out a very important salvation element, i.e. Jesus and His doctrines (teaching).

When an individual starts to walk away from religious 'standards', it is because they have encountered other biblical teaching, events and ideas that that shatter the facade of religious trappings being used as a substitute for a meaningful relationship with God and their fellow saints. This break in religious reality produces a spiritual crises, where when one comes to realize that they have been lied to, manipulated, and used by their leaders, there is a strong tendency to lose all trust and hope in what they have been taught from the pulpit. Combine this realization with the exposed hypocrisy and favoritism, control of individuals and families that church leaders so often exercise, the expected results must be: Rejection of the leaders, their teaching and their organization (church). Where does it usually show its self first? In one of two ways, (1) The individual (or family) simply leave the church without much notice, or (2) they allow the religious standards to slip, if not just outright abandoned - then they leave the church under a cloud.

Dropping church standards is the not cause of someone becoming a 'backslider', it is only a symptom.

[Socialite]

AWB (and MB) and people like that young man is frequently used as fear trophies to keep other's "on the inside" from thinking, to not consider life outside of the bubble they are stuck in. "If you do, you'll end up like them."

Many do stumble. Some because their heart was never right. Others because they are showing their spiritual immaturity. Some eventually find their feet, others never make it back home. That should never be used to justify legalism. If anything, it should make one view legalism with more contempt. Late-term abortion type contempt.

We have people who we question if they really believe. They've bought into a form of moralism. They've complied with rules, and then they didn't they had a shockamoo, a sociological explanation of how membership is maintained and one is deemed "faithful" and they can continue. Jesus didn't come to make bad people good, He came to make dead people live. How many are living and how many "live" in a vegetable state?

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman

A note on perspective: It is taught in many churches that once one abandons the pastoral standards relating to holiness, it will not be long before that person will become a 'backslider', or even lost to God.

Consider, this view point places one's salvation in their ability (willingness) to adhere to a set of religious laws of conduct developed and established by men, albeit derived from some biblical passages. If one cannot or will not submit to the church/organizational/pastoral rules, their salvation is either in doubt or they are even judged as lost.

This mindset, however, leaves out a very important salvation element, i.e. Jesus and His doctrines (teaching).

When an individual starts to walk away from religious 'standards', it is because they have encountered other biblical teaching, events and ideas that that shatter the facade of religious trappings being used as a substitute for a meaningful relationship with God and their fellow saints. This break in religious reality produces a spiritual crises, where when one comes to realize that they have been lied to, manipulated, and used by their leaders, there is a strong tendency to lose all trust and hope in what they have been taught from the pulpit. Combine this realization with the exposed hypocrisy and favoritism, control of individuals and families that church leaders so often exercise, the expected results must be: Rejection of the leaders, their teaching and their organization (church). Where does it usually show its self first? In one of two ways, (1) The individual (or family) simply leave the church without much notice, or (2) they allow the religious standards to slip, if not just outright abandoned - then they leave the church under a cloud.

Dropping church standards is the not cause of someone becoming a 'backslider', it is only a symptom.

Valid points, AW, but the young man in my example didn't drop the standards or reject his leadership; he changed churches when he married. Once in a more liberal environment, he began to struggle and visibly so. Whether his weaknesses were always there, but concealed by his adherence to standards, or whether he couldn't handle sudden freedom, or some other component that I can't think of--who knows? Regardless, if we don't address the reality of this type of situation, will we continue to lose young people who see freedom from boundaries as a mire they may easily sink into? RD hit on one contributing factor, where children are expected to absorb scripture by osmosis and perhaps expected to autonomously develop a relationship with God without our having any hand in leading them to it at all.

Those who leave the UPCI or other organizations to pastor or begin churches where rules are left off in favor of widely applicable principles must not fail to acknowledge this reality. If they do, then people who are formerly accustomed to tight boundaries may not thrive. We can chalk that up to weakness or a lack of faith in the grace of God, and maybe even brush them off, but is that really the best solution? Some may be in spiritual crises and not even know it. In one sense, the stripping away of rules and boundaries can reveal one's spiritual health very quickly, but that alone needs to be monitored by leaders who are sensitive to the inherent issues produced by a sudden change in environment.

[SOUNWORTHY]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Hey, have you shaved that beard yet?

What beard, does my picture look like I have a beard?