I don't think that the small group dynamics such as the one to which I referred can be compared to large scale enterprises like the Crusades, etc. This is more man-on-man; up close and in your face type of abuse. No doubt that the Crusades involved a lot of personal encounters and crimes - to say "the Crusades" or some of the other large scale dramas is not analogous.
On the point of my "bitterness" I would contend that such dismissals are frequently useful to those in power in order that they may continue the oppression. When I was still with the UPC and I spoke out about abuses the immediate response was that I must be "bitter." That seems to have become our catch phrase for dealing with unpleasant issues. We just say that the person who brings us the unpleasant news is "bitter" and we turn away.
The writer for the story at the start of this thread could be said to display bitterness by including graphic descriptions of the crime. Even the victim could be "bitter" for bringing the whole thing up. The one who posted the story may have done so out of "bitterness," why else would you bring it up? So it seems that there is a lot of "bitterness."
Meanwhile abusive systems remain in place. Sometimes things do come out into the open, but each time they do we are sure to hear that the ones shining the light on the abuse are "bitter."
Your frank dismissal shows me that you may have bitterness that you too are dealing with. As a fellow traveller I would like to encourage you. Speak out and reach out. Don't be satisfied with mere catch phrases. There is true progress that we can make if we honestly and completely open ourselves to Christ.
I think the Crusades are a great example of the kind of excess men will go to in order to bring power to themselves. It is much more closely realated to what one might call "legalism" than homosexual gang rape.
good grief. but if you dont like that one Linin and Trotski clearly fit your wacky man on man type incounter.... much better than the macho gay fest.
once again, where did you do this Anthropological study? UC Berkley? or some other Marxist/feminist/post moderern liberal arts school? You really need to un-learn some stuff.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
The crusades?
Eastern rulers killing their borthers to elimnate rivals?
Phillip and the Pope killing off the Knights Templair?
Fudalism?
The Cast system in India?
Svengali?
the Bolshevic revolution?
Linin and Trotski?
Pope/Anti-Pope?
Mohammad?
The human race has always had those who wished to control and used what ever means necessary to do so. it has nothing to do with the perversion of homosexuality.
you must have studied antropology at U. C. Berkley.
Give that man a pound of boudin from Richard's Meat Market in Abbeville!
__________________ "Nikita Khruschev said, "the living will envy the dead," why are so many people bent on surviving a nuclear war?
Has anyone here ever heard the Jonestown Death Tape (FBI No. Q 042)?
Here is a group that was into manipulation. Is that legalism? Would that fit the idea when a Pentecostal thinks of legalism? When legalism is mentioned most automatically think of clothes? Legalism is something that goes way beyond what a Pentecostal thinks legalism to be?
__________________ "Nikita Khruschev said, "the living will envy the dead," why are so many people bent on surviving a nuclear war?
When I think if legalism in Oneness Pentecostalism, I think of the stories we have all heard about pastors who make their members bring their pay checks to the church to get cashed and deduct 10%.
Pastors who detail exactly what kind of socs/shoes/panty hose, type of underware and other over stuff like that.
Pastors who order divorces, tell young people who they can marry, tell parents they cannot talk to children who have left that particular assymbly.
Pastors who tell people they are going to hell if they dont faithfully attend THAT one particular church
I do not think a preacher who teaches standards is a legalist.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
When I think if legalism in Oneness Pentecostalism, I think of the stories we have all heard about pastors who make their members bring their pay checks to the church to get cashed and deduct 10%.
Wouldn't that be more like Dictatorship? Lording over God's heritage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
Pastors who detail exactly what kind of socs/shoes/panty hose, type of underware and other over stuff like that.
What about the accountability of both parties? You have a man who has misused his position and people who are following obediently?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
Pastors who order divorces,
Jim Jones ordered the deaths of people's infants. If you listen to the death tape those people are very enthusiastic in their wanting to kill themselves.
The individuals who would listen to anyone pastor, doctor, lawyer, in-law, parent, to divorce never cared much about their marriage in the first place.
People who roll over that easy have a long record of being in controlled situations their whole life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
tell young people who they can marry, tell parents they cannot talk to children who have left that particular assymbly.
I would like to say, that in some situations it would not be advisable to offer advise that would lead into a bad marriage. If someone is going to be counseled for pre-marriage, and the preacher orders them NOT to get married, then that preacher is over stepping his boundaries. We are not God men, but men of God. Dictatorships and Pulpits don't work towards the will of God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
Pastors who tell people they are going to hell if they dont faithfully attend THAT one particular church.
Could you explain this thought a little further?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
I do not think a preacher who teaches standards is a legalist.
__________________ "Nikita Khruschev said, "the living will envy the dead," why are so many people bent on surviving a nuclear war?
On another thread, tv1a and RandyWayne are promoting the idea that legalism is worse and more difficult to overcome than homosexuality.
What say ye?
I can't think of anything much worse than homosexuality, to be honest.
__________________
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Difficult moments, SEEK GOD.
Quiet moments, WORSHIP GOD.
Painful moments, TRUST GOD.
Every moment, THANK GOD.
I can't think of anything much worse than homosexuality, to be honest.
Really? I can think of lots of things "much worse". The stigma attached to homosexuality in the Christian community, I think, has more to do with our culture and upbringing than any kind of inherent wickedness of the practice itself. Yes, there is scripture condemning it. But why? I can see the logic in forbidding many things, such as murder, incest, rape, lying, stealing, etc. But homosexuality is different. It seems to be a law for the sake of itself. A test, just to see if we obey, perhaps?
The whole thing about it being a "threat" to the family: I don't buy it. How does it harm my family, if two men down the street are "married" or living together? Nothing they do, in the privacy of their home, can possibly prevent me from having a healthy, monogamous, heterosexual relationship with my wife. Those guys are no threat, whatsoever.
Yes, the activists can get carried away, but it's no more than an annoyance, unless they rioted or something. That's another matter, and it's wrong for good reason. But if they get laws passed allowing gay marriage, so what? It doesn't force me to become gay! Seriously, I don't get the outrage or the alarm. Or why it's so incredibly evil. Someone explain it to me.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Wouldn't that be more like Dictatorship? Lording over God's heritage.
What about the accountability of both parties? You have a man who has misused his position and people who are following obediently?
Jim Jones ordered the deaths of people's infants. If you listen to the death tape those people are very enthusiastic in their wanting to kill themselves.
The individuals who would listen to anyone pastor, doctor, lawyer, in-law, parent, to divorce never cared much about their marriage in the first place.
People who roll over that easy have a long record of being in controlled situations their whole life.
I would like to say, that in some situations it would not be advisable to offer advise that would lead into a bad marriage. If someone is going to be counseled for pre-marriage, and the preacher orders them NOT to get married, then that preacher is over stepping his boundaries. We are not God men, but men of God. Dictatorships and Pulpits don't work towards the will of God.
Could you explain this thought a little further?
my friend all of the examples i list are related to what all of us would consider excesses. Any good pastor will offer sound advice in areas like marriage, all holiness preachers will speak on the subject of clothing and such. All pastors of all denominations that believe that the tithe is biblical will teach on the subject....any honest teaching can be twisted into legalism and domination/manipulation when taken to excess. it is EXCESS that becomes the problem...and it happens far less often than one would imagine if their only view of Oneness Penticostalism were AFF....
PS, I know more backsidden Campbellites (Church of Christ) than I do backslidden Apostolics. They all claim to have been abused by the church.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Really? I can think of lots of things "much worse". The stigma attached to homosexuality in the Christian community, I think, has more to do with our culture and upbringing than any kind of inherent wickedness of the practice itself. Yes, there is scripture condemning it. But why? I can see the logic in forbidding many things, such as murder, incest, rape, lying, stealing, etc. But homosexuality is different. It seems to be a law for the sake of itself. A test, just to see if we obey, perhaps?
The whole thing about it being a "threat" to the family: I don't buy it. How does it harm my family, if two men down the street are "married" or living together? Nothing they do, in the privacy of their home, can possibly prevent me from having a healthy, monogamous, heterosexual relationship with my wife. Those guys are no threat, whatsoever.
Yes, the activists can get carried away, but it's no more than an annoyance, unless they rioted or something. That's another matter, and it's wrong for good reason. But if they get laws passed allowing gay marriage, so what? It doesn't force me to become gay! Seriously, I don't get the outrage or the alarm. Or why it's so incredibly evil. Someone explain it to me.
Timmy the whole thing about being a threat to the family is a boondoggle. Nobody that I know thinks that is the real bad part of homosexuality. Romans 1 clearly outlines why this is so much more dangerous than just about anything else, it twists ones thinking in such a way that it becomes extremely difficult to believe ANY truth.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
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