born of water - Page 11

shazeep · #**101** 12-16-2014, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

Brother, please stop. Really. Please.

Sean · #**102** 12-17-2014, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

Brother, please stop. Really. Please.

I guess the truth hurts, Right?(its like water boarding you with Romans 6:1-7)....LOL

Sean · #**103** 12-17-2014, 08:48 AM

Look at Romans 6....
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6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?(those that are NOT baptized are NOT baptized into His death))

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.(How can we walk in newness of life if we are not "buried with him BY baptism" yet?)

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:(buried by baptism is also being "planted". If we are not baptized, we are not planted, nor ready to be resurrected either)

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.(baptism is also called a "crucifixion" here)

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.(verse 4 says we are "buried with Him by baptism INTO death". If we are not baptized, we are not dead to sin yet and subsequently not free from sin)

This ENTIRE passage cannot apply to those that have not been baptized yet, therefore water baptism is absolutely essential and AUTOMATICALLY part of the spiritual regeneration process.

If a person is NOT baptized, they are NOT saved!

[/QUOTE]

More water(baptism) boarding until you break and confess that baptism is MANDATORY for salvation!...LOL

Sean · #**104** 12-17-2014, 08:49 AM

Sean stop!!!...Gasp...glug glug!!!

shazeep · #**105** 12-17-2014, 09:24 AM

it's just that you're back to "everyone must do _________, in the way i interpret doing it from Scripture, or they are not saved," when many passages, and several parables do not bear this out. Since both would seem to be true, this leads me to believe that we really don't grasp--in this case--"baptism."

now, by all means, do the ceremony if it is important to you; but see that God judges one's heart, and that many conscientiously seeking all the jots and tittles, crying "Lord, Lord" are excluded, while many others, unaware of your ceremonies, or even actively disavowing them, are included, because their heart is just right. Ergo, they have somehow done this, "died with Christ," spiritually, without the ceremony.

Originalist · #**106** 12-17-2014, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

Look at Romans 6....
[/COLOR]
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?(those that are NOT baptized are NOT baptized into His death))

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.(How can we walk in newness of life if we are not "buried with him BY baptism" yet?)

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:(buried by baptism is also being "planted". If we are not baptized, we are not planted, nor ready to be resurrected either)

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.(baptism is also called a "crucifixion" here)

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.(verse 4 says we are "buried with Him by baptism INTO death". If we are not baptized, we are not dead to sin yet and subsequently not free from sin)

This ENTIRE passage cannot apply to those that have not been baptized yet, therefore water baptism is absolutely essential and AUTOMATICALLY part of the spiritual regeneration process.

If a person is NOT baptized, they are NOT saved!

More water(baptism) boarding until you break and confess that baptism is MANDATORY for salvation!...LOL

Since you know that I do feel that baptism is a step towards the new birth, the final line in your post of above can only be self deception on your part.

Your error IMO is that you take "being buried" in a literal sense. You see baptism as producing a literal cleansing of the heart and changing of our nature which these passages do not teach. Paul makes many figurative references to "dying daily" and "reckoning ourselves dead to sin", etc. our "reckoning ourselves dead to sin" starts in the waters of baptism. But obviously we don't really die.

Paul makes it clear that we are "buried" with him in baptism "in order that".... we too may live a new life just as Jesus was raised by the GLORY of the Father.

The phrase "in order that" is key to understanding this verse.

I can say "come to my house ye that are hungry in order that your bellies might be filled" So does that mean the moment they cross the threshold of my home that their bellies will be automatically filled? No. They can only be filled by sitting at the table and eating the food I've prepared for them.
You MUST interpret Romans 6:4 the same way. It says we are baptized (symbolically buried, dying to self, relinquishing control, etc) in order that we might live a new life, NOT to give us new life , as you insist. And what gives us the new life according to Romans 6:4? The same thing that raised Jesus from the dead, the GLORY of the Father. And what is the GLORY of the Father that raised Christ from the dead and also raises us to a new life? The answer is found in Romans 8:11....

Quote:

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you,

THERE is that GLORY that raised Christ from the dead and raises us to walk in newness of life, the Holy Spirit of God!! We are baptized in order that we might receive the Spirit which gives us life.

My reaction to your previous comments were because you are embracing a teaching that belittles Holy Ghost baptism and makes one who the Spirit has "freed from the Law of sin and death" to be a "sinner with the Holy Ghost". You completely ignore the context of Paul's writings in Romans 8 concerning those who are "in the Spirit". I know you were referencing those who had received the Spirit but who had not been baptized. But I must assume you consider people who have the Spirit but were not baptized with what you and I consider to be the appropriate words spoken over them by the baptizer to have not really been baptized at all in God's eyes and thus still in their sins. That is error.

thephnxman · #**107** 12-17-2014, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

it's just that you're back to "everyone must do _________, in the way i interpret doing it from Scripture, or they are not saved," when many passages, and several parables do not bear this out. Since both would seem to be true, this leads me to believe that we really don't grasp--in this case--"baptism."
now, by all means, do the ceremony if it is important to you; but see that God judges one's heart, and that many conscientiously seeking all the jots and tittles, crying "Lord, Lord" are excluded, while many others, unaware of your ceremonies, or even actively disavowing them, are included, because their heart is just right. Ergo, they have somehow done this, "died with Christ," spiritually, without the ceremony.

So you believe in "deathbed confessions" for salvation?
Do you believe a person can deny or reject the gospel all their lives, and repent at the
last minute and be saved? Or that a person can believe in false
doctrines until their deathbed, make a "confession of faith", and enter
into the kingdom of God?
Is that not another gospel?

I believe in a God that performs miracles: that can save a person
from an airplane crash, for example, so that
that person can believe and obey the gospel, exhibited by a righteous life.

good samaritan · #**108** 12-17-2014, 04:22 PM

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

Baptism is essential and not optional. Baptism doesn't change us though, it takes God and a willingness own our part.

shazeep · #**109** 12-17-2014, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thephnxman

So you believe in "deathbed confessions" for salvation?
Do you believe a person can deny or reject the gospel all their lives, and repent at the
last minute and be saved? Or that a person can believe in false
doctrines until their deathbed, make a "confession of faith", and enter
into the kingdom of God?
Is that not another gospel?

I believe in a God that performs miracles: that can save a person
from an airplane crash, for example, so that
that person can believe and obey the gospel, exhibited by a righteous life.

all well and good; if the Gospel is lived it is a powerful force. and would you want to be working next to a deathbed repentant?

there is no fooling God, and understand this; God is larger than your religion makes Him out to be

thephnxman · #**110** 12-17-2014, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shazeep

all well and good; if the Gospel is lived it is a powerful force. and would you want to be working next to a deathbed repentant?

there is no fooling God, and understand this; God is larger than your religion makes Him out to be

I have been alongside of more that one "deathbed" incident. I have witnessed what the Lord can do.
A man shot five times, in a coma for seven months; and the Lord raised him up (I only saw him in the coma
for the last month); a man with advanced multiple sclerosis, unable to see and barely hear: he is completely
whole; and more. A four-years old child in an automobile accident, bleeding from her nose and ears, and not
breathing: is now a 32-years-old woman working for the State of Arizona.

"...larger that your religion"? What religion do you think is that? I stated that I believe in a God that performs miracles: that He can save people from certain death so that they may attain life. What is wrong with a God like that...or a gospel like that?