Stunning Sermon On The Great Tribulation

[bbyrd009]

"...and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves..."

I don't think we've seen entire nations in perplexity from the ocean yet? In history?

[berkeley]

Sea and the waves is the people.

[shag]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

First off, I would say the prophecy about the destruction of the temple was given before Jesus started talking about the end of the world. Now, Jesus did associate some things with the destruction of the temple. Things like earthquakes, false prophets, false Christs believers' persecution, nations and kingdoms rising against themselves.

However, we all know that up till today, we still have things occurring (earthquakes, false prophets, false Christs believers' persecution, nations and kingdoms rising against themselves). Thus I see Jesus prophecies in Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 12, Luke 17, and Luke 21 as dynamic and not only linear.

I say dynamic because some of these events are gonna continue till Jesus appears visibly. Like persecution, nations fighting themselves, etc. These have started long ago and will continue till he comes.

If we look at Matt 24, Luke 21, etc as linear only, then we shouldn't be having false prophets, persecution, nations fighting today.

Now, some of the events he gave are definite events. For instance, the leading away into captivity of Israel. That is a specific event. That definitely occurred.

That is not a generic event like the persecutions, nations fighting.

Other specific events include:
The times of the gentiles being fulfilled (Luke 21:24, cross ref Rom 11:25)
All the earth seeing the Son of man VISIBLY (Matt 24:30)

So if some of the specific events have not occurred, then we can't say all of Matt 24 is past.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Jesus said "when we see these things..." Yes, the disciples saw persecutions, they saw the temple destroyed. But did they see the times of the gentiles being fulfilled??

They saw the times of the gentiles starting (Acts 10), but not the finishing of the gentiles.

Paul even gives us a clue as to the time of the gentiles being fulfilled.

Rom11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Notice, Jesus said Jerusalem is trodden down until gentile time is done with. Paul says Israel's blindness is removed when gentile time is done with. Thus, Jerusalem' blindness is removed and no longer trodden under when the gentile time is done with.

Thus, IMO, the generation that see the gentile time fulfilled, the generation that sees Israel's blindness removed will not pass away till ALL these things are fulfilled.

Again, I agree the disciples saw some of the events, but they obviously did not see ALL the events. We know (from hind sight) today the events that have happened and the ones that have not yet happened.

Notice that even the disciples thought that Israel would be restored in their time.

Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

If you notice, the question was not IF the kingdom will be restored, but rather WHEN it will be restored to Israel. So there's no doubt that the kingdom will be restored to Israel.

The question then is WHEN?

But look at Jesus' answer:
It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power

IOW, "you don't need to know the time when the kingdom will be restored to Israel. Go be my witnesses..."

But the generation that sees Israel restored will see the times of the gentiles fulfilled.

I don't claim to be an expert, but this is where I stand right now...

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

How does this scripture (when=K of God at hand) maintain accuracy for each of the folks in first century seeing things fullfilled (ie:temple destroyed)per your reasoning above?(fullfilled here and there down thru time...)
I mean, under your view they (temple destr. days)do NOT need to pay any attention to that verse at all, right? As it is only pertanant to the people who see the last of all the things...right?

Sorry for the delay, my town got hit with a tornado early last week, so I haven't been able to get on aff, workin they damaged etc...

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by shag

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

How does this scripture (when=K of God at hand) maintain accuracy for folks in first century seeing things fullfilled per your reasoning above?(fullfilled here and there down they time...)
Sorry for the delay, my town got hit with a tornado early last week, so I haven't been able to get on aff, workin they damaged etc...

Luke 21
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Jesus said "these things". Part of the "these things" is the times of the gentiles being fulfilled. That did not occur yet as per Rom 11:25

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

So, it's not about the first century folks. It's about the fulfillment of the prophecy.

Take for instance this prophecy:
Deut 18
14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

How would this prophecy maintain accuracy for those to whom Moses was speaking to? We know that "Ye" was in direct reference to the generation that Moses was speaking to. Yet, by the time the prophecy was fulfilled, that generation had long died.

As long as the prophecy has not occured, we're to wait for its fulfillment. Jesus specifically said all eyes will see the Son of man coming. If that occured, we won't even be having this discussion now...

Luke 21
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by shag

Sorry for the delay, my town got hit with a tornado early last week, so I haven't been able to get on aff, workin they damaged etc...

Heard about the tornado, glad you're safe!!!

[Truthseeker]

Why did he tell then "when YOU see these things"?

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Why did he tell then "when YOU see these things"?

But they did not see all those things.

Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Consider:
Deut 18:15
The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Why did Moses tell then "...unto him shall YE hearken" That prophecy did not even take place for many more years to come. Yet Moses was speaking directly to them when he said "Ye"

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by berkeley

Sea and the waves is the people.

Virtually always, I'll grant. I always leaned toward a literal interpretation here, at "waves?"

I've always considered "sea" and "water(s)" as people, but "waves"
has always sent me to a more literal interpretation...hmm.

[TGBTG]

For the preterists:

1. If Jesus came in 70AD, how come all eyes did not see him?

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

2. If Jesus came in 70AD and took away believers (1 Thess 4:16-17), why were there still believers preaching the word after 70AD?

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

But they did not see all those things.

Luke 21:24
And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Consider:
Deut 18:15
The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Why did Moses tell then "...unto him shall YE hearken" That prophecy did not even take place for many more years to come. Yet Moses was speaking directly to them when he said "Ye"

You didn't answer the question. Why did he tell them they would see "these things". Did he mislead them?