Stunning Sermon On The Great Tribulation

[houston]

Originally Posted by seekerman

Exactly!

Yeah. Now there's a made up temple that is going to be built in the future. Ah, well.

Kinda off topic with the following... was told by an assistant pastor that because the Jews rejected Jesus, God HAD to put a gap in Daniel's 70 weeks. Nice, how God accomodated them, no?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Ah, always wondered what "preterist" meant. Is there a recorded event that would verify verse 29, a volcano at AD 70? And what would a preterist give as the sign of the Son of man, in verse 30?

Also, verse 3 there actually begins a new subject; we are only helped to the fulfillment of verse 2 via the cryptic opening of verse 1, so to connect the fulfillment of verse 2 with the later red-letter of verse 3 onward seems suspect.

Not disagreeing, as "This generation shall not pass" seems pretty clear there.

I believe verse 3 is a continuation of verse 2 and the words of Jesus in Mat 23.....

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The "these things" the disciples are asking about is a direct question referring to Jesus' words about the things He said at the end of Chap 23 and destruction of the temple at the beginning of Chap 24. Jesus began answering their questions in verse 4.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I believe verse 3 is a continuation of verse 2 and the words of Jesus in Mat 23.....

Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

The "these things" the disciples are asking about is a direct question referring to Jesus' words about the things He said at the end of Chap 23 and destruction of the temple at the beginning of Chap 24. Jesus began answering their questions in verse 4.

Here's something interesting...

In Luke's depiction of the discourse Jesus says,

Luke 21:20-28 (ESV)
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Luke indicates that there will be a span of time between the fall of Jerusalem and the second coming that he calls, "the times of the Gentiles". It might be that we're currently in the "times of the Gentiles" right now. Notice, apocalyptic events transpire AFTER this undetermined period of time. These events might still be ahead for us... and they might be the events that the Book of Revelation is depicting. If this is so... the truth might be a blending of Preterism and Futurism.

[bbyrd009]

well, was a volcano or anything recorded, and what is this "sign?" for ad 70, and yes Aquila, I think that truth here is going to be a middle ground, and take into account "there is nothing new under the sun" as well. You indicate the age we are in, and a new age to come. What fulfills the time of the Gentiles?

And interesting to note unavoidable parallels to an individual walk, even though the events described seem to be literal.

[Michael The Disciple]

Two main reasons the 70ad theory is false.

1. The great tribulation did not happen. We know this because Jesus said it would be a time of tribulation worse than any that had ever been or would be after.

In the time around 70ad the highest estimate is that 2 million Jews were killed. That is bad. Yet it does not come close to the highest estimate of Jews that died because of Adolf Hitler estimated at 6 million.

And if we count the whole world which we should because Jesus said it would be the worst time since creation and never would be again that bad. World War 2 yielded an estimated 50 million dead around the world. Far more than the events around 70ad.

2. The second coming did not take place. Jesus said right after the great tribulation he would come and gather together his elct from one end of Heaven to the other. It has been said the judgment on Jerusalem at that time was "a coming". Well it certainly was not the coming Jesus was talking about.

No worldwide gathering of saints to meet Jesus in the clouds occured. If indeed it had we would be asking ourselves WHO ARE WE? If his second coming already happened where are those saints that were taken? Are they ruling the nations as Jesus promised the overcomers they would?

Look around at the last 20 centuries and you will have your answer. Did immortal men over rule the nations since then? Did resurrected saints ever rule over any nation since then?

Obviously not. Therefore we conclude the tribulation and rapture is still future. Many will forsake Jesus in that time. He said so. But he also said "he that endures to the end the same will be saved". Be strong in the Lord and the power of his might. Dwell in the secret place of the most high. Perhaps he will use you in those days.

[bbyrd009]

Well, ignoring the rapture thing, I have to agree. In order to refute this, you basically have to have a more or less secret second coming, that the argument "Things were in turmoil, so there was no one to write the history" just doesn't answer, imo. Absolutely no historical support?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Two main reasons the 70ad theory is false.

1. The great tribulation did not happen. We know this because Jesus said it would be a time of tribulation worse than any that had ever been or would be after.

In the time around 70ad the highest estimate is that 2 million Jews were killed. That is bad. Yet it does not come close to the highest estimate of Jews that died because of Adolf Hitler estimated at 6 million.

And if we count the whole world which we should because Jesus said it would be the worst time since creation and never would be again that bad. World War 2 yielded an estimated 50 million dead around the world. Far more than the events around 70ad.

2. The second coming did not take place. Jesus said right after the great tribulation he would come and gather together his elct from one end of Heaven to the other. It has been said the judgment on Jerusalem at that time was "a coming". Well it certainly was not the coming Jesus was talking about.

No worldwide gathering of saints to meet Jesus in the clouds occured. If indeed it had we would be asking ourselves WHO ARE WE? If his second coming already happened where are those saints that were taken? Are they ruling the nations as Jesus promised the overcomers they would?

Look around at the last 20 centuries and you will have your answer. Did immortal men over rule the nations since then? Did resurrected saints ever rule over any nation since then?

Obviously not. Therefore we conclude the tribulation and rapture is still future. Many will forsake Jesus in that time. He said so. But he also said "he that endures to the end the same will be saved". Be strong in the Lord and the power of his might. Dwell in the secret place of the most high. Perhaps he will use you in those days.

I'm not sure what you mean by the 70AD theory, but the bible is very very plain that Jesus begins the Olivet discourse by speaking of the destruction of the temple. Did this occur and when? The answer which I believe all will agree on is 70AD.

Looking at the actual temple destruction passage again....

Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

In your opinion, when did the destruction of the temple, the subject of the passage above, occur if not 70AD?

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If this is so... the truth might be a blending of Preterism and Futurism.

Some would call that partial preterism.

[bbyrd009]

If that is what gets one to "Understand I AM," then I AM all for it.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's something interesting...

In Luke's depiction of the discourse Jesus says,

Luke 21:20-28 (ESV)
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
25 “And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

Luke indicates that there will be a span of time between the fall of Jerusalem and the second coming that he calls, "the times of the Gentiles". It might be that we're currently in the "times of the Gentiles" right now. Notice, apocalyptic events transpire AFTER this undetermined period of time. These events might still be ahead for us... and they might be the events that the Book of Revelation is depicting. If this is so... the truth might be a blending of Preterism and Futurism.

Aquila, I posted this earlier on (also considering Rom 11:25)
Let me know your thoughts...

Originally Posted by TGBTG

First off, I would say the prophecy about the destruction of the temple was given before Jesus started talking about the end of the world. Now, Jesus did associate some things with the destruction of the temple. Things like earthquakes, false prophets, false Christs believers' persecution, nations and kingdoms rising against themselves.

However, we all know that up till today, we still have things occurring (earthquakes, false prophets, false Christs believers' persecution, nations and kingdoms rising against themselves). Thus I see Jesus prophecies in Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 12, Luke 17, and Luke 21 as dynamic and not only linear.

I say dynamic because some of these events are gonna continue till Jesus appears visibly. Like persecution, nations fighting themselves, etc. These have started long ago and will continue till he comes.

If we look at Matt 24, Luke 21, etc as linear only, then we shouldn't be having false prophets, persecution, nations fighting today.

Now, some of the events he gave are definite events. For instance, the leading away into captivity of Israel. That is a specific event. That definitely occurred.

That is not a generic event like the persecutions, nations fighting.

Other specific events include:
The times of the gentiles being fulfilled (Luke 21:24, cross ref Rom 11:25)
All the earth seeing the Son of man VISIBLY (Matt 24:30)

So if some of the specific events have not occurred, then we can't say all of Matt 24 is past.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


Jesus said "when we see these things..." Yes, the disciples saw persecutions, they saw the temple destroyed. But did they see the times of the gentiles being fulfilled??

They saw the times of the gentiles starting (Acts 10), but not the finishing of the gentiles.

Paul even gives us a clue as to the time of the gentiles being fulfilled.

Rom11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Notice, Jesus said Jerusalem is trodden down until gentile time is done with. Paul says Israel's blindness is removed when gentile time is done with. Thus, Jerusalem' blindness is removed and no longer trodden under when the gentile time is done with.

Thus, IMO, the generation that see the gentile time fulfilled, the generation that sees Israel's blindness removed will not pass away till ALL these things are fulfilled.

Again, I agree the disciples saw some of the events, but they obviously did not see ALL the events. We know (from hind sight) today the events that have happened and the ones that have not yet happened.

Notice that even the disciples thought that Israel would be restored in their time.

Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

If you notice, the question was not IF the kingdom will be restored, but rather WHEN it will be restored to Israel. So there's no doubt that the kingdom will be restored to Israel.

The question then is WHEN?

But look at Jesus' answer:
It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power

IOW, "you don't need to know the time when the kingdom will be restored to Israel. Go be my witnesses..."

But the generation that sees Israel restored will see the times of the gentiles fulfilled.