Faith Without Works...

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Again the Bible clearly teaches that Abraham was imputed righteousness WHEN he believed God.

believed is the context of the writer who already knows the story and views "believed" what happaned with life in view as telling what happaned in Abrahams life. Paul and James BOTH says this is a period of time.

Faith is made perfect in action, YES. But Faith is the saving component. If in fact Abraham didn't believe God and still had action, He would not be declared righteous. He had to have faith.

did you really think this out?

Thats why religious ritual will get someone no where unless they have pure faith and trust in Christ, whatever they are doing.

Abraham didn't just have mental assent like Devils have mental assent that God exist.. Abraham planned in his mind to prepare "the baby room" as he truly believe God would give him the promise. Thats more than mental assent, thats expectation[/QUOTE]


hmmm sounds like action judged to me. What does Paul say why his faith was considered to him.

Rom 4:19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb.
Rom 4:20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,
Rom 4:21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.
Rom 4:22 That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness."

[LUKE2447]

Also another point is God considering YOUR RESPONSE righteous is not salvation in total. It simply is God judging something right or just. Jesus considering the church of Ephesus just in many things did not mean he considered them justified/righteous in all things.

[Socialite]

Our obedience to what? To trust and rely on God's work on the cross. When we fall, stumble -- there is something we are not believing about the Gospel.

Luke those scriptures weren't "nothing" scriptures, and I'm frankly a little sad you just skipped over them as such. They all show an immediate position before God through Jesus. Not some "consideration" to see how we do. The cart is in front of the horse.

And BTW, Sproul doesn't believe in mental assent. That's a nasty lie. You can say all you want about his views on losing salvation, etc but he doesn't believe in mental assent. In fact, I don't think I know anyone that does. It's a straw man game. Sproul has a very high view of faith and believing.

Our judgment has already been given to Jesus. We are pardoned as long as we remain in Him -- and we are "in Him" by grace through faith. This is the Gospel. The Gospel isn't a "let's try this again" game. The Gospel is "I know you've tried it so many times, so I'll do it for you" story. Any good works we produce come by the Spirit, a picture of the grace he's already done for us.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Also another point is God considering YOUR RESPONSE righteous is not salvation in total. It simply is God judging something right or just. Jesus considering the church of Ephesus just in many things did not mean he considered them justified/righteous in all things.

Are you reading what you are writing?

Romans 8:32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been declared righteous by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 4:1-6 What then shall we say that Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh, has discovered regarding this matter? 2 For if Abraham was declared righteous by the works of the law, he has something to boast about—but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? “ Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 So even David himself speaks regarding the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Titus 3:5-7 He saved us not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7 And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.”

We need to draw our assurance from faith in the facts of Scripture and not from our works. Works or the biblical changes that occur in our lives as a result of the grace of God can confirm the reality of our life with God. We must be ever so careful, however, in making such subjective ground the basis of our assurance, for when a believer is out of fellowship he or she can have the appearance of an unbeliever especially if the condition lasts for any length of time.

Proper Christian living should never be the fundamental grounds for assurance of salvation. Rather, assurance of salvation which should rest in the merit and sufficiency of the Savior and the believer’s new life in Christ, must be the fundamental basis for proper Christian living.

We cannot give anything to God that would obligate a return on his part - that's what we want to do. But that's not grace. That's a hard pill for some to swallow...

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman

Romans 4:2 (KJV)
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law : for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

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Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Gen 26:1-6 And there was a famine in the land, beside the first famine that was in the days of Abraham. And Isaac went unto Abimelech king of the Philistines unto Gerar . And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father; And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

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Kids, you have to think Hebraic, not Aristotelian.

As long as one thinks in an abstract (Western) world view, the relationship between passages such as those noted here, shall remain forever a paradox; where people can feel free to pick and choose whatever verses they think supports a particular viewpoint, rather than integrating God's word into a beautiful tapestry.

When it looks all disconnected and the patterns are not discernible - turn it over and look at it from the other side.

I've maintained that as well. The writers are not competing or contradicting each other. Both are offering a perspective. However, James is concerned, in his letter, about the Church acting like the Church, being the Church, showing good works. This is Christian living -- which is far too often confused with salvation. To do so puts the cart in front of the horse, and corrupts the very gift of Grace God has given through Jesus.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Our obedience to what?

"And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." Genesis 22:18

The only way that we can reconcile Genesis 22:18 and Romans 4:13-17, IMO, is to understand that our faith and obedience cannot be separated.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

"And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice." Genesis 22:18

The only way that we can reconcile Genesis 22:18 and Romans 4:13-17, IMO, is to understand that our faith and obedience cannot be separated.

I don't believe they can either, PO.

But it's how we view their relationship, and how we view their relationship in light of salvation. One distorts the Gospel, the other proclaims it.

Prior to Gen 22, Abram was a justified, righteous man -- righteous people obey God. Of course, we have plenty of examples of Abraham lying (sinning) and occasionally getting himself into trouble, and showing signs of disbelief too.

My obedience to the Gospel (trust in, reliance on His work done for me) is primary. I don't fear getting to the end of time and unsure of my position before God. I stand before Him now, counted righteous, called His on, adopted in the family as an heir and fully His. It's not a performance review at the end of time.

[Socialite]

My justification is a vicarious one

I’ve said before, we are not saved apart from the law. Rather, we are saved in Christ who perfectly kept the law on our behalf. Michael Horton points this out in his excellent essay “Obedience is Better than Sacrifice”:

As important as it is that Christ bore the penalty of our sins on the cross, it is just as important that he triumphed over the powers of evil and recapitulated the history of fallen humanity and Israel. Adam was commanded to obey God’s law and failed, Israel was commanded to obey God’s law and failed, but Christ came into this world and completed a life of perfect obedience to the law of his Father. Christ the righteous One was indeed the Last Adam, the True Israel…We have not only been forgiven on the basis of Christ’s curse-bearing death, but justified on the basis of his probation-fulfilling life.

[Socialite]

"If there were a correlation between our obedience & God's discipline, we would've been destroyed a long time ago." Grace really is amazing!

[Socialite]

Some relevant Tweets today to this conversation

When God calls (like he did to Adam), "Where are you?", the Spirit leads us to answer, "In Christ."

The Bible never tells us what to do before first soaking our hearts and minds in what God in Christ has already done.

"Quit making your goodness the issue! This isn’t about you and me; it’s about Jesus."

The emphasis in much preaching today is on what we're to do w/out adequate grounding in the good news of what God has done for us in Christ.

"The faith that receives Christ apart from works for justification also receives Christ for works in sanctification."

If we want the gospel to reach people we have to distinguish it from moralism because moralism is what most think Christianity is all about.

"God wants us to find our primary joy in our objectively declared justification not in our subjectively perceived sanctification."

"The church tends to drift into legalism because it isolates the gospel to salvation & not the foundation to the whole life." Paul Miller