Why do I have to speak in tongues?

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We went through a similar chat with each other before. And I will say again what I said then. I took the words of the Bible and saw what it said about requirements for seeing the miraculous. He said to not test Him, but rather take His Word as truth and believe in it to see the results he claimed we would see. And it happened with me over and over again.

For example, and I wrote of this before and I am not sure if you were involved in that chat or not, but it seems you were. Anyway, we were talking about God answering prayer. And I related one of the many times I saw a miraculous answer for prayer.

I was seeking God as to what step to take next in my ministry seeing I knew my then-present situation was ending. So, having several opportunities and open doors for me to take across the continent, I was bewildered as to which one to take. A minister friend of mine felt to tell me to agree with him in prayer for a supernatural sign from the Lord as to which road I should take. We did it.

Involved in all of this story was my first book I wrote that was printed and shipped to me in January of '07. I advertised it on my website and by the time May of the same year came around I sold a whopping 22 copies over the internet. lol. Not a huge amount, but I would later find it was God's hand in more ways than I then realized.

In May I opted to check out one of my doors of opportunity and set out on a flight from Winnipeg, Canada, to Ontario, California. I changed flights in St. Paul, and then my third plane connected with me in Phoenix. I walked to the automated seat ticket dispenser and obtained my seat number. 22B.

I boarded the plane and found my seat and waited for everyone else to find theirs and be on our way. While sitting there, I saw a man walking down the aisle holding my back up in the air, looking for his seat! I looked twice and sure enough it was my book! Only 22 sold! And of all places, way down in Phoenix, Arizona, this man was looking for his seat with my book raised high in his hand.

I stood up and told him he had my book. He thought I meant he stole it from me in the airport. I said no, I wrote it.

And HIS SEAT NUMBER WAS 22A! Directly beside me.

He was a minister from North Carolina visiting L.A. to preach there three nights, and indicated he was hoping to get the book before the flight so he could read it on the trip. I actually recalled signing the book for him, since I did that with my sales, and he showed me the signature where he appreciated the gesture.

he could have had the book in his suitcase. He could have simply not brought it. But with me getting my ticket for the seat number when I did, and he doing the same when he did, and the fact that only 22 were sold in the world (and someone added we were in seat row 22!), my mind was blown!

The passenger in seat 22C apologized for overhearing us and asked me to clarify whether or not I wrote the book, sold only 22 of them, and this man bought it only to sit directly beside me after each of us came from locations in the continent that were simply and plainly diverse from one another. After being blown away at my confirmation, I asked him to take the following picture.



So I took that as the answer to prayer as to which route to take in my journey in ministry.

Now, the odds of that happening are astronomical. But seeing I followed the scriptures and did not TEST God to work but actually believed he would, it was proof God answers prayers and that His Word is true.

That AMONG MANY MANY similar experiences, is PART OF why I have faith in Christianity.

In fact, it would take more anti-faith (for lack of a better term) to believe this was COINCIDENCE than not! But I am sure people worked on their unbelief enough that they can actually believe that was coincidence and not God answering prayer at all.

Sounds to me like you judge all who question your experience as having no Faith.

This is precisely what I mean when I said, "Blind Faith destroys God". You assume your experience to be from God, but cannot prove it. God never told you it was from Him, but you tell everyone it is a FACT. This separates you from others who doubt you, and you see them as lacking Faith in God.

Bingo!!!! You're ready to start your own Religion and bring God into your corner!!

The domino effect of this is what leads entire Nations to look for a SIGN. Not just any sign, but the sign of coincidence, which an Atheist can experience, calling it "God".

Brother, you and I both know, this kind of thing can drive people insane trying to figure out God's Will. This is why so many Christians live in FEAR. The next move in life must be confirmed by a sign, otherwise God is not with them. Then what kind of a sign do we look for?? Who do we listen too?? Who will interpret that sign as RIGHT??

A woman from our Church was in the Hospital recently. Her previous pastor decides to pay her a visit and tells her, "Sister, you're in the hospital because you left our church". This was an Apostolic Pastor. This woman was tormented by this, and yes, I was furious!! This mind play is used all the time in Religion, and this "God Said" propaganda destroys real Faith.

Real Faith carries us when all doors are shut, all feelings are gone, and no sign is to be found. When the belly is empty, or the body fails, or the circumstances around us are in darkness, will we still bless His Name???

I feel this is why so many leave Church today. The Blessing is gone, so why stick around?? People want "Feel Good" Faith, not wanting to hang in there when the well is dry. People forget, when things have gone "South", and trials over run their life, this is where they will grow and become seasoned with experience.

Life is a peculiar thing. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. Good and bad happens to all, and for reasons only the Almighty knows. If we try to “Read” into everything, we will only confuse people and ultimately ourselves. I’ve stopped telling people, “God told me” because my emotions can play tricks on me and over the last 30 years I have watched way too many fall because of the played out ideal of, “The Spirit spoke to me”.

Romans 1:20 says something that settles the score for me;

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Creation speaks volumes of God’s Handiwork and “Proves” His existence better than ALL the Religions in the World combined!! When prophecies fail, and when churches fail, and when Governments fail, I can look up and SEE the miracle of a billion stars that God gave man to behold. No guess work, no maybes. No what ifs.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but what happened to you could happen to anyone, whether they live for God or not.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Since I did what the Word say to do, and it worked, then it is correct. I'm sold on it.



They need to be sure as they can be, and leave their souls in their confidence. I can only speak for myself. It is not my responsibility nor ability to be able to ascertain anyone else's state with God. "What shall this man do?" Peter asked Jesus, and Jesus told him it's none of Peter's business. I am just to share what I know of God and do that part in the Kingdom.

Why not WANT to believe?

Still waiting for some help on deciding which religion (or "relationship" as a lot of Christians like to call their faith) to choose to have faith in. Nothing you have said is specific to your own faith. It can and does "work" for many different religions.

And that is where you have a problem (which you will likely not admit to): if your "faith" (what you believe in) is true, then nothing else can be true. But if your method of determining truth (that it works for you) is correct, then their method is also correct.

This is a contradiction that cannot be resolved simply by saying "I can only speak for myself" and such.

I can tell you really worked on your unbelief.

We all have unbelief. You have unbelief in my "doctrines"! (And it seems you do work hard on that unbelief -- considering my question about God's promises to be, somehow, nonsensical.)

[Timmy]

Guess this had been a bit of a threadjack, eh?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Sounds to me like you judge all who question your experience as having no Faith.

Not at all. I explained my experience to show that what you call "blind faith" that does not require a sign in order to FIRST believe for a miracle and THEN get one after that faith is exerted is biblical. You said you're like Thomas who does not agree with Jesus when Jesus said to be blessed by NOT SEEING FIRST in order to believe, but believing FIRST without seeing.

This is precisely what I mean when I said, "Blind Faith destroys God".

Argue with Jesus. You have that right, you know.

You assume your experience to be from God, but cannot prove it.

I did prove it by having it!

God never told you it was from Him, but you tell everyone it is a FACT.

I did what the BIBLE said to do in order to see God do something and it happened. Such a thing never happened to me outside of such prayer based upon the bible's directives to pray certain ways.

This separates you from others who doubt you, and you see them as lacking Faith in God.

No. What separates me from others is not having to see before I believe for such miracles, as opposed to arguments such as yours that demand we see first in order to believe for such things.

Bingo!!!! You're ready to start your own Religion and bring God into your corner!!

Are you serious? lol. Start my own religion? I have rarely read such confusion. No, the truth of the matter is that I support the BIBLE religion of Christianity. I did what the CHRISTIAN BIBLE told me to do and it worked, and I propose Christianity is the only truth on earth as a result.

Meanwhile you claim Jesus was wrong when He rebuked Thomas for not believing lest he see first. You never answered me. Was Jesus wrong? Do you deny this part of the bible?

The domino effect of this is what leads entire Nations to look for a SIGN. Not just any sign, but the sign of coincidence, which an Atheist can experience, calling it "God".

Looking for a sign? See, this is where you are in confusion. You just said blind faith that NEEDS NO SIGN destroys God. I required NO SIGN in order to pray for my miracle. I never even knew what the miracle would be that I believed was coming after following the bible mandate for prayer for miracles. And now you speak as though I am the one wanting a sign. The sign was not for my faith in God, as you seem to believe you require and find in the form of science, while you claim Jesus was wrong in rebuking Thomas. The sign was for which direction I should go in ministry, Big difference. In fact, I never experienced nor sought any sign for any other time I ever moved in ministry before or since. And you make it sound like it is something I live by and cannot live without. If I never got the sign, I would still be strong in faith in the Lord. That sign was not for my basis of faith. It was for direction for ministry totally aside from my faith in Christ.

Let's get the picture: You deny Jesus was correct in saying it is tempting God to leap off the temple in order to see if God's word is true, and we are supposed to agree, as Christians, with your statements here? And then you turn around and talk about Romans and how truthful it is. Do you not believe all the bible? Is it the words of Jesus you deny and only accept other parts? And yet you call me one who thinks he can start new religion based upon sign seeking? Where is there sense in that?

Brother, you and I both know, this kind of thing can drive people insane trying to figure out God's Will. This is why so many Christians live in FEAR. The next move in life must be confirmed by a sign, otherwise God is not with them. Then what kind of a sign do we look for?? Who do we listen too?? Who will interpret that sign as RIGHT??

Who said I live by signs or that any should live by That was the one and only time I ever sought confirmation from God by a sign in any aspect of my Christianity. What I have experienced proves God, amongst many totally different experiences, such as the financial miracle I was blessed with in my first pastorate. And my Christianity was never based upon those experiences. Those experiences are based upon my Christianity. I am amazed at your manner of reasoning.

A woman from our Church was in the Hospital recently. Her previous pastor decides to pay her a visit and tells her, "Sister, you're in the hospital because you left our church". This was an Apostolic Pastor. This woman was tormented by this, and yes, I was furious!! This mind play is used all the time in Religion, and this "God Said" propaganda destroys real Faith.

What has that got to do with the price of tea in China?

Real Faith carries us when all doors are shut, all feelings are gone, and no sign is to be found. When the belly is empty, or the body fails, or the circumstances around us are in darkness, will we still bless His Name???

That is exactly what I have been saying about how I had faith to see miracles. I had to have that kind of faith before I saw my miracles. I already said we do not tempt God as though to TEST Him and THEN after the miracle comes get faith. You have it all backwards. I did not get my faith from the miracles. I used my faith TO GET the miracles.

I feel this is why so many leave Church today. The Blessing is gone, so why stick around?? People want "Feel Good" Faith, not wanting to hang in there when the well is dry. People forget, when things have gone "South", and trials over run their life, this is where they will grow and become seasoned with experience.

Right. And this is the faith I exerted without SEEING ONE SIGN to believe God that I would get a miracle. And I got it! Somehow you've turned this whole concept I proposed around into needing signs to have faith to begin with, when you were actually the one who claimed not requiring a sign is what destroys God in people's lives.

Life is a peculiar thing. The rain falls on the just and the unjust. Good and bad happens to all, and for reasons only the Almighty knows. If we try to “Read” into everything, we will only confuse people and ultimately ourselves. I’ve stopped telling people, “God told me” because my emotions can play tricks on me and over the last 30 years I have watched way too many fall because of the played out ideal of, “The Spirit spoke to me”.

Romans 1:20 says something that settles the score for me;

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

Creation speaks volumes of God’s Handiwork and “Proves” His existence better than ALL the Religions in the World combined!! When prophecies fail, and when churches fail, and when Governments fail, I can look up and SEE the miracle of a billion stars that God gave man to behold. No guess work, no maybes. No what ifs.

I don't want to rain on your parade, but what happened to you could happen to anyone, whether they live for God or not.

You've gone from one extreme to an opposite other. (And it doesn't rain on any parade of mine in the least. My faith is stronger than that!) But you argue against what Jesus said to Thomas as though the Lord was wrong, and you call "blind faith" error, that needs not see anything to believe for a miracle, for instance, and then turn around and demand people not require signs to stick with God. Your words are confusion, bro.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Still waiting for some help on deciding which religion (or "relationship" as a lot of Christians like to call their faith) to choose to have faith in. Nothing you have said is specific to your own faith. It can and does "work" for many different religions.

Perhaps you need to compare people with people in order to make your position solid, however, we are individuals. And we have to try things for ourselves in order to know what is truth. You can go ahead and try all the religions out and see which ones work or not, but I put faith in Christ and it worked. For me, I need go no further. For you, maybe you would need to go further than that.

And that is where you have a problem (which you will likely not admit to): if your "faith" (what you believe in) is true, then nothing else can be true. But if your method of determining truth (that it works for you) is correct, then their method is also correct.

This is a contradiction that cannot be resolved simply by saying "I can only speak for myself" and such.

I disagree. But if you think so, that is your choice. But I do not base my faith on what others claim, or err in, or experience. Jesus said it best. Do what He says to do and see if what He said is true or not. I did and He responded just as He said He would.

We all have unbelief. You have unbelief in my "doctrines"! (And it seems you do work hard on that unbelief -- considering my question about God's promises to be, somehow, nonsensical.)

I can agree with that! What you said to me has not caused anything in my life that marks something worth value toward a religion to live by. But Christ's words did something in my life that did.

[Timmy]

So you followed instructions that you found in the Bible, and it worked. You got your miracles. To you, this proves that the Bible is true.

If it hadn't worked, would you then conclude that the Bible wasn't true?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

You missed the whole point of my previous post. Instead it's more of the, "your deluding yourself by believing this is coincidence stuff". I gave a very good explanation for how things could reasonably be coincidence. I never said it was or wasn't, only that no one can know. Now as far as things happening when you pray... Isn't it possible that at least one of those times something happened was only coincidence? So we are still stuck not being able to determine what is coincidence and what is God.

I disagree. When the circumstances of prayer and defeating doubt in my heart are in place in every situation where something occurs that would require astronomical coincidences to occur, and are found in no other circumstances in my life, and it goes precisely along with the requirements Christ proposed to see such things, there is no chance for coincidence.

As I said, your very reasoning is what I had to depart from as much as possible to even have the faith for those miracles to occur.

If you say it was God everytime you got a result who can argue with that. But do you honestly believe that? Couldn't maybe just one of those "results" be coincidence?

I honestly believe that it was God.. Absolutely.

Here's the biggest problem about believing in God because of prayer "results".

You got it backwards too! I believed GOD BEFORE I got those miracles. Yes, they reinforced my faith, but such things never ever caused my faith.

You have already determined in your heart that whatever happens regarding your prayer is God's doing. So if something happens it is God and if something doesn't happen it is God also. Apparently no matter what you pray whatever happens is God's doing.

Only when I pray without doubting.

Then to try to use "answered" prayers to convince others to believe in God when you have already determined that whatever happens regarding the prayer is God's doing is where the real problem lies. Tell them of how you prayed for a sick family member and God answered the prayer by letting them die. Tell them of how you prayed for a man in a wheelchair and God answered it by not letting him walk again. But you don't want to mention how God answered these prayers. You want to mention all the "good" answers to prayer and forget about all the others. It is prayer in this light that makes us say we cannot know what answers are from God and which are just coincidence.

I do not hesitate at all to mention many things where I saw no miracle and people actually died. And I use the bible where it says the three Hebrew Children told the King that God was able to deliver them, but even if He doesn't , they still will not bow and deny faith in Him.

Oh, how you could have faith if you would see how wrong your reasoning is!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

So you followed instructions that you found in the Bible, and it worked. You got your miracles. To you, this proves that the Bible is true.

If it hadn't worked, would you then conclude that the Bible wasn't true?

You guys are not getting the main point I am making. It does not prove the bible to me. I only use it to encourage others the bible is true, I cannot believe for them as I believed the Bible for myself before I saw any miracles. So all I can do for those who struggle is show them the experiences that I had AFTER I believed the word. That is the best way I know how to encourage someone to believe the word before THEY see. I had to have faith in what the bible said FIRST before I saw any of these things. This encourages them to BELIEVE FIRST and then see, too.

[mfblume]

Sorry, Kutless, for the thread's venture away from topic.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You guys are not getting the main point I am making. It does not prove the bible to me. i only use it to encourage others the bible is true, I cannot believe for them as I believed the Bible for myself before I saw any miracles. So all I can do for those who struggle is show them the experiences that I had AFTER I believed the word. That is the best way I know how to encourage someone to believe the word before THEY see. I had to have faith in what the bible said FIRST before I saw any of these things.

OK. So, you believed first, then got the miracles. Now, if I read this correctly, you expect others to hear your stories of these miracles and believe the Bible because of them.

Your faith was of the type Jesus told Thomas about (believe without seeing). Theirs (the people who believe because of your miracles) is of the type Thomas had (believing after seeing).

Am I getting it now?