What Is The One Step Of One Step Doctrine?

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Good but OSAS teaches that and so do antinomian groups. I know people that teach repentance doesn't save, that teach stricter than the UPC and believe in ETERNAL SECURITY. Because "you should" doesn't mean your understanding of "judgment" is right.

My point was your judgment system is lawless in the end. God judges a certain way. SHOW ME THE LINE IN THE SAND from scripture because he is faithful in ALL THINGS! Also it's not all about HIS DOING it is also about your response as well unto judgment. which somehow you don't agree with blows my mind. Jesus clearly teaches what I have shown through John, Matthew, James, Paul, Mark, Luke and OT by Moses of Abraham.

I never said you taught lawless in the sense of saying it is ok to do whatever. Again it is about judgment and people that don't treat salvation(both present and future aspects) with fear and trembling will always lighten the day of judgment with a false security that they have already obtained with a form of false doctrine of a eschatological acquittal. Seen this view and style of thought way to many times.




sorry but I did not know I had brought up baptism.(way to switch subjects ) You assume to much. I have made my opinion clear on this several times. You should be biblically correct in everyway possible from the heart. How God judges not being baptized in his name.... I have no idea as the Bible does not say. Would I be fearful? Yes! Would I condemn? No! As it's not my judgment!

Sorry, my apologies, I got you confused with Light who responded earlier with the baptism thing.

It's still not lawless in the end. It is the law (word) which first reveals that I am a law breaker. It is God who opens my eyes to see that. He is the One First Cause who seeks and if He doesn't draw me to Him, I'll NEVER get there. So, HE is the author and finisher of my faith. Certainly I must respond to His "advances" toward me. However, I am living under a different law. I am living a law that desires to please Him. It is the law of love. Perfect love casts out fear. Therefore I have no fear of being lost but confidence toward Him. Not an arrogant confidence but a humble faith filled confidence that "He who has begun a good work in me will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

And regardless of what you've seen "way too many times" I still wake up every morning KNOWING absolutely that I am saved. Not eternal security in the Calvanistic sense but security in knowing that I know that I know. I know because I belong to Him. I know because I have surrendered to Him and continually desire for Him to have His way in my life. I don't fear the trumpet call and I don't fear the grim reaper. Like Job, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him."

Can I be lost? Absolutely! But it's not as easy as most people think. My salvation is not fragile. It is strong. It is secure. It has been purchased by the blood of the Lamb who has the victory over death, hell and the grave. I love Him so I desire to follow His will. However, even that desire, I believe is from Him. I am thankful for all the He has done for me. I am engraved upon the palms of His hands and am the apple of His eye. I am not chained to the cross, I am free to fall at the foot of the cross......every day!

Biblically, it appears, our deeds WILL have something to do with our REWARD level to whatever degree God desires. However, my salvation is settled. It does not rest upon MY works, it rests upon His work. "On Christ the solid Rock I stand.....ALL other ground is sinking sand!"

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Sorry, my apologies, I got you confused with Light who responded earlier with the baptism thing.

no prob it happens...

It's still not lawless in the end. It is the law (word) which first reveals that I am a law breaker. It is God who opens my eyes to see that. He is the One First Cause who seeks and if He doesn't draw me to Him, I'll NEVER get there. So, HE is the author and finisher of my faith. Certainly I must respond to His "advances" toward me. However, I am living under a different law. I am living a law that desires to please Him.

I agree "in part" with what you say but this last statment is so beyond insane it is sickening. God's love was manifested of old. You make God as if he is different now. He is not! You are borderline Marcion in your distinctions... God's law is still based on the same thing! His love has always been the same. Also nice way to misuse author and finisher like OSAS proponent. sheesh

It is the law of love. Perfect love casts out fear.

And this has changed? LOL! Seriously you believe in a God who is inconsistent.

Therefore I have no fear of being lost but confidence toward Him.

that's all nice but biblical it is both not NOT ONE! which is why your view is out of balance.

Not an arrogant confidence but a humble faith filled confidence that "He who has begun a good work in me will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

that's all nice but you negate the very fact and almost give a sense of irresistable grace. Not saying you believe that but you a hair short of that direction. The fact is most will turn away or live a life in the middle after have started so your point is poor. Many are called but few chosen.

And regardless of what you've seen "way too many times" I still wake up every morning KNOWING absolutely that I am saved.

That is good. Problem is you can't judge yourself only God can. For God is greater than your heart. You should place you faith in his judgment. He is just! It's not about perfection nor ever was in regards to us. The law made allowance for sin as does the new law it's called repentance. It hasn't changed.

Eze 18:26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life.
Eze 18:28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

You still must persevere to the end and not be lukewarm or cold.

Not eternal security in the Calvanistic sense but security in knowing that I know that I know. I know because I belong to Him. I know because I have surrendered to Him and continually desire for Him to have His way in my life. I don't fear the trumpet call and I don't fear the grim reaper. Like Job, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him."

Well besides the fact you just jumbled two totally different things togethor thinking it supports the other and it doesn't... If you have given your heart and all you have that is all you can rest in. HE is faithful in his justice given. That you can have confidence in. You still will be judged faithful or not. I am glad you feel humble and confident as a true believer you should but it doesn't negate the fact that you don't in the end and you should still walk in fear and humbleness of heart so that you will not fall. Which I pray you will.

Can I be lost? Absolutely! But it's not as easy as most people think. (MY NOTE: I thought it was secure per below )

sorry but as easily as you entered into salvation is a easy as you lose it. Faith is a choice and so is the walk to turn and have the flesh your master.

My salvation is not fragile. It is strong. It is secure.

It is IF you do his commandments.

It has been purchased by the blood of the Lamb who has the victory over death, hell and the grave.

That is correct but that was his work to OFFER you salvation and has nothing to do with your repsonsibility to obtain eternal life. You keep point to one and saying it secures the other. Again you are borderline OSAS in how you do that though you may not believe that way. You are def influenced in that direction.

I love Him so I desire to follow His will. However, even that desire, I believe is from Him. I am thankful for all the He has done for me. I am engraved upon the palms of His hands and am the apple of His eye. I am not chained to the cross, I am free to fall at the foot of the cross......every day!

Awesome but you are taken out of the book just as easily as you are put in.

Exo 32:31 So Moses returned to the LORD and said, "Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold.
Exo 32:32 But now, if you will forgive their sin--but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written."
Exo 32:33 But the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

Biblically, it appears, our deeds WILL have something to do with our REWARD level to whatever degree God desires. However, my salvation is settled. It does not rest upon MY works, it rests upon His work. "On Christ the solid Rock I stand.....ALL other ground is sinking sand!"

Wow... amazing... you sound just like Dillow who is a OSAS Calvinist... Imagine that you run to the VERY arguments you tried to say... oh no to. Sorry been down this road and seen all the variations to grab different doctrines in different systems and ignore the implications it causes. Been doing this waaay to long not to see it a mile away. It's almost hilarious you can't see you are ignoring what is said. Your salvation is settled? WOW... you speak out both sides of your doctrine don't you. Oh and by the way yes it does rest in part upon you. You can talk about confidence all you want and twist the meaning like you did above but in the end. You are judged unto life or death because of your deeds and whether you fulfilled your end of the contract to do to obtain. NOTHING is settled until your works in this life cease and you pass to judgment and are judged faithful or not.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

no prob it happens...



I agree "in part" with what you say but this last statment is so beyond insane it is sickening. God's love was manifested of old. You make God as if he is different now. He is not! You are borderline Marcion in your distinctions... God's law is still based on the same thing! His love has always been the same. Also nice way to misuse author and finisher like OSAS proponent. sheesh




And this has changed? LOL! Seriously you believe in a God who is inconsistent.




that's all nice but biblical it is both not NOT ONE! which is why your view is out of balance.




that's all nice but you negate the very fact and almost give a sense of irresistable grace. Not saying you believe that but you a hair short of that direction. The fact is most will turn away or live a life in the middle after have started so your point is poor. Many are called but few chosen.



That is good. Problem is you can't judge yourself only God can. For God is greater than your heart. You should place you faith in his judgment. He is just! It's not about perfection nor ever was in regards to us. The law made allowance for sin as does the new law it's called repentance. It hasn't changed.

Eze 18:26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life.
Eze 18:28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
Eze 18:29 Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?

You still must persevere to the end and not be lukewarm or cold.




Well besides the fact you just jumbled two totally different things togethor thinking it supports the other and it doesn't... If you have given your heart and all you have that is all you can rest in. HE is faithful in his justice given. That you can have confidence in. You still will be judged faithful or not. I am glad you feel humble and confident as a true believer you should but it doesn't negate the fact that you don't in the end and you should still walk in fear and humbleness of heart so that you will not fall. Which I pray you will.



sorry but as easily as you entered into salvation is a easy as you lose it. Faith is a choice and so is the walk to turn and have the flesh your master.



It is IF you do his commandments.



That is correct but that was his work to OFFER you salvation and has nothing to do with your repsonsibility to obtain eternal life. You keep point to one and saying it secures the other. Again you are borderline OSAS in how you do that though you may not believe that way. You are def influenced in that direction.



Awesome but you are taken out of the book just as easily as you are put in.

Exo 32:31 So Moses returned to the LORD and said, "Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold.
Exo 32:32 But now, if you will forgive their sin--but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written."
Exo 32:33 But the LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.






Wow... amazing... you sound just like Dillow who is a OSAS Calvinist... Imagine that you run to the VERY arguments you tried to say... oh no to. Sorry been down this road and seen all the variations to grab different doctrines in different systems and ignore the implications it causes. Been doing this waaay to long not to see it a mile away. It's almost hilarious you can't see you are ignoring what is said. Your salvation is settled? WOW... you speak out both sides of your doctrine don't you. Oh and by the way yes it does rest in part upon you. You can talk about confidence all you want and twist the meaning like you did above but in the end. You are judged unto life or death because of your deeds and whether you fulfilled your end of the contract to do to obtain. NOTHING is settled until your works in this life cease and you pass to judgment and are judged faithful or not.

Hmmmmm.....I think I read somewhere that some men's sins go BEFORE to judgment and some follow after.

To the degree you see me as OSAS and my view as "insane and sickening I see your view as EXTREME legalism and Pharisaical! And we both know how Jesus viewed that. Imagine that. You can't even see how you are confused and how you are putting your confidence in your flesh.

I can lose my salvation just as easily as I received it? I don't think so and I am truly sorry that you do. You make it sound as if losing your salvation is only a minor act away. I believe in obedience but my obedience comes from my salvation not towards it. I obey because I love Him not because I want to stay saved. No matter what you say you cannot shake this confidence I have toward Him or the confidence I have that I will be with Him in eternity. I don't want to fail and I don't want to walk away from Him, which I know I can. However, I have confidence in His power to sustain me as I turn my face and heart TO Him.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Hmmmmm.....I think I read somewhere that some men's sins go BEFORE to judgment and some follow after.

To the degree you see me as OSAS and my view as "insane and sickening I see your view as EXTREME legalism and Pharisaical! And we both know how Jesus viewed that. Imagine that. You can't even see how you are confused and how you are putting your confidence in your flesh.

I can lose my salvation just as easily as I received it? I don't think so and I am truly sorry that you do. You make it sound as if losing your salvation is only a minor act away. I believe in obedience but my obedience comes from my salvation not towards it. I obey because I love Him not because I want to stay saved. No matter what you say you cannot shake this confidence I have toward Him or the confidence I have that I will be with Him in eternity. I don't want to fail and I don't want to walk away from Him, which I know I can. However, I have confidence in His power to sustain me as I turn my face and heart TO Him.

WOW... so basically you have not refuted ONE SCRIPTURE I have said at all and my points on obedience in this thread. Yet I am extreme legalism because I view obedience as fulfillment of my response of faith to his will? ROFL! Your insane! You are my friend IF you do what I command. Jesus was clear and the text is clear that to partake of the tree of life enter the gate is to those who OBEY his commandments. John 15 and

Mat 7:12 "So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Mat 7:13 "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
Mat 7:14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Luk 13:24 "Exert every effort(AGONIZE gk: agonizomai,) to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.


Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

One cannot serve two masters and the Spirit bears witness ifwe are really his children. As easily as you placed trust in God you can deny him and go after the flesh. The parable of the seed clearly teaches this. Again your points of him sustaining you are always correct but it's not ALL about his sustaining power AND HIM DOING IT FOR YOU! It's about your choice and he will sustain you IF you choose him. He won't sustain you when you are a enmity against him as he cannot nor will. He will seek you but he cannot make you nor force by coercion. The prodigal Son.. "HE" clearly realized what he has lost and went back and THEN was declared that he was once considered DEAD and now alive again.

You say pharisaical and you lack clear understanding what was wrong with the pharisees. They where MORE CORRECTLY antilegalists who denied God's Word by there own teaching who heaped doctrines of man upon that which God HAD NOT said THEY WHERE AGAINST HIS LAW and law breakers for it. SHOW ME! PROVE ME that the doctrine I speak is of man! It is HIS Word that I have shown you and yet you deny it! I have shown you plainly his teachings but you negate the truth of the obligation and yoke he has given us.

Just as the yoke was not hard for Israel to do it is not neither to hard for us to do his commandments as his burden is light and not hard to do as well.

Deu 30:10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deu 30:11 "For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard (IMPOSSIBLE)for you, neither is it far off.
Deu 30:12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
Deu 30:13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?'
Deu 30:14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
Deu 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.

JEsus clearly showed unto life or unto death by our deeds in response to HIS WORD! IT IS THE SAME LAW! John 15 that he was proved by and SO ARE WE!

IT is the same principle today with the Law of Christ it is has not changed but administrations and empowerment unto perfection by the Spirit.

I have never said it is by the power of my flesh! It is my choice through the empowerment of his Spirit that I overcome. You have fallen for original sin doctrine which negates free will. I have choice but am incomplete through the weakness of my flesh. I am not totaly depraved! You grab concepts from those doctrines of which you deny and spew them like they are your own saliva in denial.

A righteous man falls seven times and Christ has made a way. It is not by the "justice" (sacrifices) of the law applied to which it was but a shadow or figure but by the "justice" (sacrifice) of Christ that saves us. Faith is the value of getting up unto repentance of which then a man's heart is judged again "right" but the atoning aspect of the turning is known through his suffering now for justice done.

Eze 18:26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die.
Eze 18:27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life.
Eze 18:28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

(Also see Matt 5:23-24 below)

Atonement only matters or is effective IF repentance and reconciliation has been properly made. You and others can cry I plead the blood at the judgment all you want but it won't matter because your past actions is the issue at judgment and ARE BEING JUDGED and whether they previously have made the atonment/blood effective on your life or not by abiding in him and his WORD that makes you clean. You have no NEW pleading!

Mat 5:23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

It is YOU who are loosening the reality of his commandments! Matthew 5:19-20

I am sorry but as nice as you are, I cannot agree with you. I hope you understand!

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

".......Your insane!


Atonement only matters or is effective IF repentance and reconciliation has been properly made. You and others can cry I plead the blood at the judgment all you want but it won't matter because your past actions is the issue at judgment and ARE BEING JUDGED and whether they previously have made the atonment/blood effective on your life or not by abiding in him and his WORD that makes you clean. You have no NEW pleading!

It is YOU who are loosening the reality of his commandments! Matthew 5:19-20

I am sorry but as nice as you are, I cannot agree with you. I hope you understand!

Thanks for putting me in good company! Paul was accused of being insane as well and also accused of denying the law. So, I accept your accusation in the company of a great cloud of witnesses!

I do not and have not espoused anti-nomianism as it seems that you are accusing me of.

Show me one place in all that I have said that I declared that we will be saved w/o good works. I do not believe that there is such a thing as a true Christian who has no good works in their life. I believe that we are required to do good works. My good works/obedience flow from my relationship with God. IF I have a relationship w/Him, it WILL show in my lifestyle or good works or you could call it discipleship. My good works will follow me and God knows them right well. However, when I get on the other side I will not be able to point to my "pile" of good works for justification. There is only ONE thing which I can trust in for my justification (you do know the doctrine of justification don't you?) and that is the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

I won't be able to point to my baptism as proof or any other good biblical discipline that I have done to declare my worthiness to enter eternity with Him. That still doesn't negate the fact that I am required to live a surrendered life to Him. Sure I make choices. I make them every day and I should make choices based upon God's word. But I still can't use the good choices as "leverage" for worthiness. Ain't gonna happen!

Mt. 7:21-23 is very clear about a group who brought all their GOOD works (prophesying, casting out demons, many wonders) that they did in Jesus' name and He told them to depart because they were practitioners of "lawlessless" NKJV

So, bring all the good works you want and can muster up, but if you don't have the "goods" (relationship w/Jesus) you ain't got a snowball's chance of spending eternity with Him.

No one will make it w/o good works but there will be plenty who won't make it WITH good works. So, if I'm going to err at all (which I don't want to) I'll err on the side of relationship w/Jesus Christ. If that's insanity, I would to God all His children were insane!!!

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Thanks for putting me in good company! Paul was accused of being insane as well and also accused of denying the law. So, I accept your accusation in the company of a great cloud of witnesses!

you go out on limbs that where never there.

I do not and have not espoused anti-nomianism as it seems that you are accusing me of.

Never said you did. My point though is the end you are negating the necessity and reality of the work.

Show me one place in all that I have said that I declared that we will be saved w/o good works.

Strawman argument as that was not my point. antinomians will even say you cannot be saved without works because only saved people will do works. It's circular logic that is worthless and negates the reality of what the works accomplish.... They accomplish "judgment" so that God can "consider" Gen 15:6 "count/account" them (which is "it" in the verse) as a righteous response. Which I have ALREADY pointed out! Abraham is a type and his type did not receive his promise UNTIL he was judged faithful by obedience.

I do not believe that there is such a thing as a true Christian who has no good works in their life. I believe that we are required to do good works.

hmmm interesting how I anticipated the slight of hand on this subject above.

My good works/obedience flow from my relationship with God. IF I have a relationship w/Him, it WILL show in my lifestyle or good works or you could call it discipleship.

correct and that is not the point. You though act as if there is no judgment of your response and then turn around say I am not feearful...yet we are told to agonize because so few will enter. EVERYONE has a relationship with God though. It is whether you are FAITHFUL TO HIS WORD THAT IS THE POINT!

My good works will follow me and God knows them right well.

The Spirit bears witness with our Spirit this would be correct.

However, when I get on the other side I will not be able to point to my "pile" of good works for justification.

two forms of justification which is taught by many in history. Start googling that.

There is only ONE thing which I can trust in for my justification (you do know the doctrine of justification don't you?) and that is the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

again you are talking from a false point. I have already pointed out many times the aspect of atonement. Christ is our justice for our sin but that has nothing to do with the walk by which we are "considered" just to his calling and commandment. If we fail and turn to him we are alive. I notice you failed to even acknowledge these points that have BEEN CLEARLY MADE!

I won't be able to point to my baptism as proof or any other good biblical discipline that I have done to declare my worthiness to enter eternity with Him.

hmmm doesn't sound like the life of abraham that God consider your response just. Baptism is how you point to the contract signing of his promises to you. Thus you have rights and promises in covenant and also a CURSE (OH MY)

That still doesn't negate the fact that I am required to live a surrendered life to Him. Sure I make choices. I make them every day and I should make choices based upon God's word. But I still can't use the good choices as "leverage" for worthiness. Ain't gonna happen!

who said leverage? God judges your actions. You are in contract TO DO TO OBTAIN LIFE and you even pointed you have to give up everything... thus you must doing his will just as JESUS DID and ABIDED in the Father. I wish you would deal with scriptures...

Mt. 7:21-23 is very clear about a group who brought all their GOOD works (prophesying, casting out demons, many wonders) that they did in Jesus' name and He told them to depart because they were practitioners of "lawlessless" NKJV

uhhh yes and your point? At what point in time have I ever said it is not about relationship.

So, bring all the good works you want and can muster up, but if you don't have the "goods" (relationship w/Jesus) you ain't got a snowball's chance of spending eternity with Him.

again have I said anything different? strawman icon anyone?

No one will make it w/o good works but there will be plenty who won't make it WITH good works. So, if I'm going to err at all (which I don't want to) I'll err on the side of relationship w/Jesus Christ. If that's insanity, I would to God all His children were insane!!!

and again another false dilemma... keeping picking up the strawman and while your at it DEAL WITH THE SCRIPTURES I HAVE POINTED TO!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

no it's common sense that your judment will be by your deeds... THUS your "pleading" has already been done by the evidence of YOUR FAITH!

You crack me up, Bro! "Common sense" instead of the Bible? ... especially in an area where the Bible is so verbose in contradicting your opinion here?

There is a judgment for our "works" - 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 and 2 Corinthians 5:10.

However, this thread is about salvation. In the above passages of Scripture it is plainly evident that no what the outcome of the judgment - the individuals in all of these cases are Christians and saved by the Blood of the Lamb.

The opening post asked - how did they (or do they) become saved?

Your response has been to argue that a person can do works and thus merit salvation. I asked for Scripture and you scoffed at the very thought of being asked for Scripture concerning the salvation of a believer.

I implore you to rethink your position on this matter. You appear to have wandered far astray from the teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles.

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Not trying to shake you confidence.... he is faithful. I question your doctrine. That is correct but they had a TESTIMONY to DO! I did not avoid any commandment. The point of John 15 is the love unto death which is upon which all the law hangs. Thus they loved unto death. Witness and confessing is also what we are to do. Thus your "I plead the blood" is not going to be how you are saved. The pleading of your life in obedience to the contract by which he could offer through his death is what will judge you. Did you plead unto him then WITH YOUR LIFE by you deeds!?!?!

Nope. I did would not ever consider "pleading" with God that my own deeds and works merit salvation.

Read: Romans 3:24; Galatians 3:22; Galatians 6:11-12 NLT and Galatians 6:14; Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 3:8-10; Titus 3:3-7; 1 John 5:10-12.

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Would not disgree but the testimony is both of the Word and the Spirit which will have many applications.
He will give us what to say and do thus we aer doing his works in obedience.

Hey! You're not far from the Kingdom with this one!

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

It's because you fail to understand the whole of Abraham and what was judged.


context...

1) he believe the Lord and "he" and accounted (consider, think about, to judge) "it"

now what is "it" that is considered or judged as righteous?

Faith.... It does not say Abraham believe the Lord and he considered Abraham righteous. It saying he considered his "faith" as something Abraham did as righteous. Which is a judgment of action. Thus God judged that "act" of faith as a "righteous deed" just which the bible clearly teaches faith is a deed done like any other response. Was Abraham righteous in what he did? Yes! THUS the point "it" was "considered." We cannot though take away from the order by which this comes about and HOW judgment comes about....

Nothing is funny about your lack of understanding on this.

Not even a "nice try" there.

YOU SAID: "It does not say Abraham believe the Lord and he considered Abraham righteous."

GENESIS SAID:"And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

PAUL SAID: "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Q: What did Abraham do?
A: Abraham believed God.

Q: What did God do in response to Abraham's "one step" of belief?
A: God counted Abraham righteous.

Q: What happens when a New Testament Christian comes along and follows Abraham's example?
A. Galatians 3:29

Your argument isn't with me, here. Your argument is with what Paul wrote in Galatians 3. Pretending that those who disagree with your "works based salvation" are simply misunderstanding your exhalted form of "theology" appears to be showing the highest levels of disrespect to the plain teachings of the apostles.

If it troubles you, why don't you just tear out Galatians 3 and any other "offending" passages of Scripture? Add that to your "works."

Me? I'll stick with Jesus because Jesus saves!

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

you go out on limbs that where never there.



Never said you did. My point though is the end you are negating the necessity and reality of the work.



Strawman argument as that was not my point. antinomians will even say you cannot be saved without works because only saved people will do works. It's circular logic that is worthless and negates the reality of what the works accomplish.... They accomplish "judgment" so that God can "consider" Gen 15:6 "count/account" them (which is "it" in the verse) as a righteous response. Which I have ALREADY pointed out! Abraham is a type and his type did not receive his promise UNTIL he was judged faithful by obedience.

I do not believe that there is such a thing as a true Christian who has no good works in their life. I believe that we are required to do good works.

hmmm interesting how I anticipated the slight of hand on this subject above.



correct and that is not the point. You though act as if there is no judgment of your response and then turn around say I am not feearful...yet we are told to agonize because so few will enter. EVERYONE has a relationship with God though. It is whether you are FAITHFUL TO HIS WORD THAT IS THE POINT!



The Spirit bears witness with our Spirit this would be correct.



two forms of justification which is taught by many in history. Start googling that.



again you are talking from a false point. I have already pointed out many times the aspect of atonement. Christ is our justice for our sin but that has nothing to do with the walk by which we are "considered" just to his calling and commandment. If we fail and turn to him we are alive. I notice you failed to even acknowledge these points that have BEEN CLEARLY MADE!



hmmm doesn't sound like the life of abraham that God consider your response just. Baptism is how you point to the contract signing of his promises to you. Thus you have rights and promises in covenant and also a CURSE (OH MY)



who said leverage? God judges your actions. You are in contract TO DO TO OBTAIN LIFE and you even pointed you have to give up everything... thus you must doing his will just as JESUS DID and ABIDED in the Father. I wish you would deal with scriptures...



uhhh yes and your point? At what point in time have I ever said it is not about relationship.



again have I said anything different? strawman icon anyone?



and again another false dilemma... keeping picking up the strawman and while your at it DEAL WITH THE SCRIPTURES I HAVE POINTED TO!

No matter what scripture is used, you will see it through your distorted lens of WORKS. You have a works paradigm. No argument or explanation will change that. No amount of truth will change your mind. It is obvious that this upsets you, so far be it from me to raise your blood pressure. You have a right to believe what you believe.

But let me ask you this: Of all the things I have said, and I have never said that good works are unimportant or should not be a part of the believer's life or that the believer should have a lax attitude toward good works etc.

So what is the problem with how I preach/teach the confidence a believe can have in their salvation?

And to be honest, you're so confusing I can't even really get a handle on just what it is you do believe about salvation!

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

No matter what scripture is used, you will see it through your distorted lens of WORKS. You have a works paradigm. No argument or explanation will change that. No amount of truth will change your mind. It is obvious that this upsets you, so far be it from me to raise your blood pressure. You have a right to believe what you believe.

But let me ask you this: Of all the things I have said, and I have never said that good works are unimportant or should not be a part of the believer's life or that the believer should have a lax attitude toward good works etc.

So what is the problem with how I preach/teach the confidence a believe can have in their salvation?

And to be honest, you're so confusing I can't even really get a handle on just what it is you do believe about salvation!

I am not saying your overall view is so destructive you are going to send people to hell.... please understand that. MY point is salvation is synergistic with a monergistic source. Heb 5:8 The same truth that is found in Abraham and his judgment unto the promise isth same today. We all wil stand before God in judgment and weighed unto faithfulness or wanting. You my friend are a good man and I know you love God but as Abraham was judged aright and realized his promise so also are we. God cannot judge until there is something to bring justice to. In the end we stand before God because of his mercy and grace we did and completed our calling. Either we abide in him unto life or or unto ourselves unto death. We have assurity "if" we remain in him we will see life.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

I am not saying your overall view is so destructive you are going to send people to hell.... please understand that. MY point is salvation is synergistic with a monergistic source. Heb 5:8 The same truth that is found in Abraham and his judgment unto the promise isth same today. We all wil stand before God in judgment and weighed unto faithfulness or wanting. You my friend are a good man and I know you love God but as Abraham was judged aright and realized his promise so also are we. God cannot judge until there is something to bring justice to. In the end we stand before God because of his mercy and grace we did and completed our calling. Either we abide in him unto life or or unto ourselves unto death. We have assurity "if" we remain in him we will see life.

Which is exactly why we pray NOW, "not my will but Yours be done" in our lives. The steps of a good man ARE ordered of the Lord, IF that is where our hearts are. My works go before me and I am confident that God not only hears but answers my prayers to follow Him and be used of Him.

I am not HOPING that my deeds will be enough. (how much is enough?) He has and is answering my prayers. Based upon His word that He will do so, I have the utmost confidence that He will continue to do so and also the utmost confidence that on that day He will say, "Well done, you good and faithful servant. Enter into the joy of your Lord!" There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind or heart simply because, "On Christ the solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand."

You have every right to doubt your end and live your life in doubt and never being sure of your salvation. You can continue to focus on your works.....I'll just continue to do mine and focus on His work.

I'm not doubting my salvation and I won't. I will continue to strive to do my best to follow Him. But I will not do so in fear. I am more than a conqueror and a victor. I am the apple of His eye and I am as saved as I ever will be. I frequently ask Him to help me and cleanse me and strengthen me. I have utmost confidence that He does and will.

I am truly sorry that you don't share that same joy and confidence. It would probably lower your blood pressure, help you sleep at night and maybe even take the "edge" off your preaching! LOL

"It is a good day to die!"