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View Poll Results: When are we forgiven?
Repentance 33 91.67%
Baptism 3 8.33%
Voters: 36. You may not vote on this poll

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  #91  
Old 03-23-2010, 01:57 PM
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Re: When Are We Forgiven?

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Originally Posted by notofworks View Post
Ok, that's fine. But you said "Acknowledgement" so I wanted to make sure.
Can't blame you for that!
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  #92  
Old 03-23-2010, 02:02 PM
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Re: When Are We Forgiven?

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
Can't blame you for that!

So have we settled it, then, that you have an opinion but I'm sticking with the bible?
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  #93  
Old 03-23-2010, 02:06 PM
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Re: When Are We Forgiven?

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Originally Posted by notofworks View Post
So have we settled it, then, that you have an opinion but I'm sticking with the bible?
I have the opinion that you can qualify and verify whatever statements you want to qualify and verify. That's as far as I go on that one.
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  #94  
Old 03-23-2010, 02:37 PM
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Re: When Are We Forgiven?

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Originally Posted by NotforSale View Post
Forgiveness may occur even before one has admitted to sin, or repented.

The Adulterous woman that was cast at Jesus' feet. "Neither do I condemn thee"

Those that crucified Jesus. "Father, forgive them"

Was Stephens prayer granted? "Lord, lay not this sin to their charge."
Interesting thought. I would say the woman cast at the feet of Jesus was repentant (or in the process) and God could see her heart. Repentance does not require verbal admission though it often is associated.

The point in Stephens prayer was for Stephen. Whether it truely was "counted" against the murderers was a moot point really, because only unregenerate men plot and plan murder.
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Last edited by Hoovie; 03-23-2010 at 02:46 PM.
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  #95  
Old 03-23-2010, 02:39 PM
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Re: When Are We Forgiven?

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Originally Posted by notofworks View Post
Repentance is acknowledgement??
I don't buy that at ALL.....I can acknowledge all day long that I'm a sinner, but until I ASK for forgiveness can repentance be applied.
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  #96  
Old 03-23-2010, 02:39 PM
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Re: When Are We Forgiven?

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Originally Posted by Hoovie View Post
Interesting thought. I would say the woman cast at the feet of Jesus was repentant (or in the process) and God could see her heart. Repentance does not require verbal admission though it often is associated.
Think she would have repented if she hadn't been caught?

Quote:
The point in Stephens prayer was for Stephen. Whether it truely was "counted" against them was a moot point really, because only unregenerate men plot and plan murder.
Was Stephen more forgiving than God?
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  #97  
Old 03-23-2010, 02:41 PM
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Re: When Are We Forgiven?

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
How do you turn if you don't acknowledge that you need to turn or acknowledge the reason why you need to turn?
I can acknowledge WITHOUT turning.
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  #98  
Old 03-23-2010, 02:41 PM
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Re: When Are We Forgiven?

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
I am very well aware what "repentance" means - to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction).

I'm not going to think differently, reconsider my plight, feel any moral compunction if I'm not aware or acknowledge that I need to.
Wouldn't that be conviction?
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  #99  
Old 03-23-2010, 02:47 PM
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Re: When Are We Forgiven?

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Originally Posted by rgcraig View Post
I can acknowledge WITHOUT turning.
Of course there are people who know they need to do good and do it not.

You still have to be aware/acknowledge that you need to turn around and go in another direction. Not ALL people who acknowledge their wrong will turn, but ALL people who do sincerely acknowledge their wrong and sincerely want to act on that will turn.

Who is going to sincerely turn without having an awareness that they need to? That has nothing to do with someone who refuses to turn.
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  #100  
Old 03-23-2010, 02:48 PM
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Re: When Are We Forgiven?

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
JMO -

Forgiveness happens at repentence;
Remission (washing away) of sins occurs at baptism.
I was taught by my UPC pastor that there is a difference between forgiveness and remission. He taught that forgiveness has to do with the penalty of sin and was received at repentance but that remission had to do with cleansing from sin and did not happen until baptism. He used an example of a guest spilling something on a carpet. They were forgiven for their clumsiness when they asked the host to forgive them but the stain wasn't removed until someone cleaned it up. He also used the example of a debt. A debt can be forgiven but it is not paid unless the money is remitted to the creditor. He also taught that we humans cannot forgive sin but we can remit/remove/wash away sin if we baptize someone in Jesus' name.

This teaching is based on the KJV version of Acts 2:38 where, in the opinion of some, remission of sin is connected to water baptism. When the RSV came out in the nineteen fifties, the UPC officially condemned it and an article was written about it in the November 1953 Pentecostal Herald. In the Illinois District Conference a resolution was adopted on May 15, 1953 for "the rejection of the usage of the Revised Standard Version of the Holy Bible in our churches." In the UPC General Conference later that year that same rejection of the use of the RSV was made the official standard of the organization by a resolution adopted. One of the reasons for rejection of the RSV was because it was claimed that Acts 2:38 was mistranslated by using the word "forgiveness" instead of "remission." In that November 1953 Herald, Bro. M.J. Wolff has an article called "The New Bible." He comes down pretty hard on the RSV. He lists several reasons for his rejection of the RSV. Point no. 4 says "The drastic changes made in certain passages of 'this book' are unacceptable to true Christianity: we mention just a few as follows:" He then lists 11 things which to him are "unacceptable to true Christianity." Number 8 of these "unacceptable things is "Acts 2:38 changed to read, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins;'" The word "forgiveness" is in bold type in his article.

Since the RSV, other translations of the Bible use the word "forgiveness" in Acts 2:38. The Greek word that is translated "remission" in Acts 2:38 in the KJV is some times translated "forgiveness" in that same version. In a previous post on this forum, the Greek word that is variously translated as "forgiveness" or "remission" was given and every place it occurs in the New Testament was quoted. I could probably find that information if anyone wants it.

So, after all of the above wordiness, what I'm trying to say is that, in my opinion, remission and forgiveness are the same thing since they are alternate translations of the same Greek word.
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Last edited by Sam; 03-23-2010 at 02:51 PM. Reason: correct typos
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