Can Women Pastor ?

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

...and if Paul were writing today hewouldpraise women such as Mother A O Homes and other like her who have preached the gospel for years...HE WOULD CONDEMN women such as .................. who are out of their place....

Any woman who violates I Tim. 2:11-15 & I Cor. 14:34 is "out of her place."

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Paul left Timothy behind in Ephesus to stop false teachers; 1Tim 1:3. The church
there was fighting many false doctrines from the religion of Artemis because
Ephesus was the world center of her worship. The mystery religions and Gnostic
beliefs shared many of these same beliefs.
Here are five of these false doctrines widely believed in Ephesus:
1. Eve was created before Adam and received "special knowledge" when she ate the
forbidden fruit.
2. Female "Mediators" passed this "special knowledge" on to men during sexual
rites featuring intercourse.
3
3. Mediator women mixing sex with worship were called "Authenia" from the
Greek word "Authenteo".
4. Warrior women called Amazons. who were superior to men, founded the city of
Ephesus and set up the worship of the fertility goddess Artemis.
5. Artemis, whose name meant SAFE, could keep a woman safe during the dangers
of childbirth.
Paul is arming Timothy against every one of these evil doctrines! He warns him in
1Tim 1:20 against two teachers who blaspheme, one a female named Hymenaeus
meaning "Wedding Song" and the other a male named Alexander. The doctrine of
female Mediators is countered in 1Tim 2:5, "For there is one God and one Mediator
between God and men...". A few verses later Paul moves to stop female teachers
such as Hymenaeus by instructing, "I do not permit a woman to teach or to
"AUTHENTEIN" a man, but to be in silence." (copied)

However to any Bible teacher this is a well known fact...

While you're quoting from I Tim., how about quoting Chp. 2:11-15 & then actually believing it! Besides, you only referenced part of the reason Paul left Timothy there. He [or it may have been Titus] was to ordain elders [which is ALWAYS in the masculine...never feminine] in every city.

Hmmmm, hard to see how women could possibly fit into this category.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

A Woman is not to Teach What?!
The entire King James phrase "to usurp authority over" is incorrectly translated from
one Greek word, "AUTHENTEIN". This word is used only once in the New
Testament, and is called by an early instructor, "a coarse word". The "ein" ending
tells us that it is the "to" form of a verb made from Authenteo, Strong's 831. A noun
form of the same word is "Authenia" which is the term for the women "Mediators"
mixing intercourse with religion! Paul is saying he won't allow women to teach or to
____ a man! Insert a coarse sexual word, which is our closest word to the Greek
word "Authentein". At the time of Paul it meant to have sex as a part of worship--a
joining of a man with a female mediator who represented the goddess being
worshipped.
In the very next verse Paul stops the doctrine of Eve being created first, "For Adam
was formed first, then Eve." Next he points out that Eve was deceived, not given
special knowledge. The final verse proves that Paul is countering evil doctrines! (copied from church of God.)

Pure speculation & eisegesis unstated in the text. The context was church order...not the home life. "these things I write unto you that you may know how to behave yourself in the house of God, which IS THE CHURCH..."

Sorry, try again!

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

The twelve apostles were all men, and there is no evidence that any of the Seventy, who were
sent out two-by-two, were female; this is hardly surprising in the prevailing social conditions.
Nevertheless, some women did leave their homes to follow Jesus: Lk.8:1-3 records how Mary
Magdalene, Joanna the wife of Herod’s steward, Susanna, and others ministered to His material
needs, while traveling with Him, even to the point of contributing their money to His expenses.
Women stood by Jesus at the crucifixion (in contrast to Jesus’ male disciples, who “all forsook
Him and fled”(Mk.14:50). There is one other thing to note about the twelve apostles and that’s
they were all Jewish. For those who contend that disciples, apostles, evangelists, preachers,
teachers, etc. can only be men for Jesus chose only men to be His apostles, then they must also
conclude that they must all be Jewish, because He only chose Jewish men!
Women were the first witnesses of the Resurrection, though some of the men were skeptical
when they were told of the resurrection by the women. This is very important to note for in
Jewish law women could not be witnesses, but Jesus allows women to be His witnesses!
Jesus not only accepted the service of women, but He also used them to spread the Gospel:
Mary Magdalene was sent as the apostula apostalorum or as the apostle to the apostles to tell
them of the Good news of Jesus’ resurrection (Jn.20:17- & Mt.28:10). The Samaritan woman
preached the news of Jesus in her village, so that “many Samaritans believed in Him because of
the woman’s testimony” (Jn.4:39).
In Acts the pattern continues: women are full members of the Church. Luke specifically
records that both women and men were baptized (Acts 8:12; 16:15). Since women are baptized,
are they not true members of the body of Christ with all the privileges and responsibilities that
goes with it? Women, including Jesus’ mother, joined with the men in prayer. They were present
at Pentecost (Acts 2:1). Quoting from Joel, Peter referred to “daughters” and “maidservants”
prophesying (Acts 2:17-18); the Holy Spirit is said to fall on all the disciples (not just the men).
Acts frequently mentions women converts, including Timothy’s mother (Acts 16:1- 2 and
Tim.1:5); Lydia, a wealthy woman who gave Paul hospitality (Acts 16:13-15); Damaris at
Athens; and women of high standing at Philippi and Beroea. Women were miraculously healed.
The Church cared for widows; the Church met for prayer at the house of Mary, the mother of
John Mark (12:12); and Phillip had four daughters who prophesied (21:9).
In spite of the frequent references to women, the early Church’s leadership, as depicted in
Acts, was mostly male (Although, approximately 40% of those greeted in Romans 16 were
female). One exceptional figure is Priscilla, who with her husband taught the learned Apollos
(Acts 18:2, 18, 26; Rom.16:3-; 1 Cor.16:19; 2 Tim. 4:19)! (con´t from above)

And where did ANY of these women instruct believers from the Scriptures:____________? Just because someone is in the Body of Christ, are they now in the 5-fold ministry????????????????????????????????

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

The attitude of Paul in the Epistles is more difficult to determine because of the variety of
teaching found there, given in response to specific situations. The key to his teaching is Gal.3:28,
which states: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond or free, there is neither male
or female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” The context shows that Paul is speaking of the
new relationship that comes through faith and Christian baptism. His use of “male” and “female”
echoes Gen.1:27, where both man and woman are made in God’s image. And this passage does
not say that this will take place in the future, but speaks in the present tense!
Here we have the abolition not of sexual differences between men and women but the
abolition of their religious inequality.
Paul’s recognition of women as full members of the Christian community is further illustrated
by his affectionate greetings to them, i.e., “the beloved Persis” (Rom.16:2); “Apphia our sister”
(Philem.2); Rufus’ mother, “a mother to me, too” (Rom.16:13); and more importantly his
references to them as fellow workers. Phoebe (Rom.16:1-) is described as a diakonos, a deacon
or “minister,” “servant” of the church at Cenchreae (1 Tim.3:8; Phil.1:1; Eph. 6:21; Col. 1:7; etc);
and as Paul’s “patroness” (Greek prostatis... “Leader,” or “chief”). Priscilla, Mary,
Tryphaena, Tryphosa, Euodia, and Syntyche are all described as fellow workers or laborers in the
Gospel .
Phil 4:2-3
2 I plead with Euodia and I plead with Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord.
3 Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side
in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose
names are in the book of life. (NIV)
What do you suppose Paul meant when he said that they were fellow workers or laborers “in
the Gospel?” Do you suppose that they cooked and washed for him? Think for a moment... What
if these words had been directed at men? Would you think that Paul meant that the men cooked
and washed for him or that they preached the Gospel also? Yes, that is what Paul meant, when he
referred to the women as workers “in the Gospel.” They preached the Gospel also. Notice that it
says plainly that these women worked side by side in telling the Good News to others. This IS
preaching the Gospel!
Junia (Rom.16:7) is said to be “outstanding among the apostles.” The evidence that this
name should be read as feminine is overwhelming: Chrysostom Hom. 31 in rom.; C.E.B.
Cranfield, ICC on Romans (1979), II, 788; Brooten, “Junia... Outstanding among the Apostles,”
in Swidler, Women Priests, pp. 141-144; No where in history is there an example of a man
ever bearing the name Junia!! There are a few who believer that Romans 16:7 means that the
apostles found this woman to be an outstanding woman, but disbelieve that it meant she was an
apostle. However, all the references mentioned assure us that the correct understanding is that
this woman was an apostle and that she did the work of an evangelist in spreading the Gospel to
both men and women. (con´t from above.)

Have already demostrated that the name Junias is a 3rd declension masculine noun [not feminine]. I deal more extensively w/ this in my book. BAGD states that it is impossible to state for sure the gender of this person....try again!

Have already dealt w/ the other "examples." Don't feel like dealing w/ each of them again, when you just explain away w/ a wave of the hand I Tim. 2:11-15. Sorry, I ain't fallin' for it!

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Women in the New Testament Church Did What?
By Dianne D. McDonnell
Printer Friendly Version

Christ gives spiritual gifts to all His children, men and women, so that we can build His Church. Not everyone is given the same "gift" for "we have gifts that differ." (Romans 12:6.) God designed His spiritual gifts so that we would need each other! No one person would have all the spiritual gifts it would take to build His Church. Both men and women were given these various gifts and worked hard together jointly spreading the gospel and nurturing the new church. Ephesians 4:11-13 lists gifts of the Holy Spirit that deal specifically with church building and public ministry—apostles, prophets, evangelists, ministers and teachers.

Many people have assumed that women were not given these more public gifts—only men. Yet the New Testament tells us of some women empowered by the Holy Spirit as a "spiritual gift" to do these different jobs equally with some men with the same calling! Did all men and women receive these leadership spiritual gifts Paul lists in Ephesians? No, many receive a less public role, but a role just as essential, such as encouraging, contributing to the needs of others, and showing mercy, as in Romans 12:6-8. In 1 Corinthians 12:7, Paul lists wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, discernment of spirits and acquiring other languages or interpreting other languages—all of these are essential spiritual gifts needed by the entire church!

This article will deal only with the most public of "spiritual gifts" given to some women as well as to some men. In each case they are empowered by the Holy Spirit, led, strengthened, and "called" by God to a certain role.

Apostles: There were other apostles beyond the twelve1. Paul greets Junia, a Roman woman converted before Paul, praising her as "outstanding among the apostles," Romans 16:7. "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding2 among the apostles3, and they were in Christ before I was." NIV4

They are outstanding or eminent from among the apostles. Many mentally read this scripture as—They are (said to be) outstanding among (they substitute "by") the apostles. Adding these four words would totally change the meaning of this scripture! However, these four words—said to be/by—are not in the Greek text! "By" is a totally different Greek word than the word translated "among". Paul never relied on the opinions of other apostles to back his praise. He knew these two very well, having been in prison with them. He was praising them as "outstanding (or eminent) among the apostles." Paul considered them apostles just as he considered himself to be an apostle.

Junia was a common female name and there are no historical examples of any Roman male named Junia5. She is praised with Andronicus, who was believed to be her husband. Both were doing an excellent job among the apostles after the twelve, and had been imprisoned with Paul probably because of their active leadership roles.

"Paul mentions many women by name in his epistles, and the same terms used to designate male church leaders are used to designate female church leaders. A woman named Junia is called an 'apostle'. Similarly, inscriptions from around the Mediterranean world describe specific Jewish women as 'leader', 'elder,' 'mother of the synagogue...The early church's specific leadership functions posed no barriers to women." 6

Prophets: An evangelist named Philip had four virgin daughters who were prophetesses. Acts 21:8,9. Other women in the church were praying and prophesying aloud in the churches and a controversy arose over whether these participating women needed to veil themselves as the Hebrew women did. Finally Paul decided their long hair was covering enough as they prayed and prophesied during church services, 1 Cor 11:5-16. Also see Acts 2:18, "…both men and women…shall prophesy," referring to the messages given in different languages to both men and women on the day of Pentecost. Anna was also a prophetess, Luke 2:36.

Evangelists: Priscilla, together with her husband Aquila, accompanied Paul on an evangelizing trip to Ephesus. Paul continued on and left them behind to evangelize. At Ephesus, Priscilla (listed before her husband Aquila) taught the learned minister Apollos more accurately in the faith, Acts 18:18-26. Some translations add that this happened in their house but the Greek for Acts 18:26 only tells us that they took Apollos unto themselves and doesn't mention a house. The word used for explained or expounded is the same word used when Peter publicly explained the truth in Acts 11:47. Priscilla and Aquila also established a church in Rome, Romans 16:3-5, and risked their lives for Paul.

Both Euodia and Syntyche evangelized publicly with Paul; they "contended at my side in the cause of the gospel". Both women zealously "contended", and the Greek word that Paul used conjures up verbal team wrestling! The word8 means "to wrestle in company with". They publicly wrestled with words right beside Paul as they all three publicly defended the faith! Their names are "in the book of life" together with a male co-worker named Clement, Phil 4:2-3 NIV

Pastors or Ministers: In Romans 16:1-2, Phoebe, a woman, was a "diakonon" of the church in Cenchrea. The same Greek word translated "servant"9 here, is translated "minister" in twenty-two other scriptures such as in Col 1:25 "Of this church I was made a minister according to the stewardship from God bestowed on me for your benefit, that I might fully carry out the preaching of the word of God," NAS

Phoebe is believed to have delivered the book of Romans after traveling some 800 miles from Cenchrea near Corinth to Rome. Paul writes "I commend10 (or introduce) to you, our sister Phoebe," Then he introduces her as a minister11 of the church in Cenchrea and urges the church at Rome to help her with the matter that brings her to Rome, for "she has been a great help to many people, including me." The word translated merely "great help" or "helper" is a word meaning "a woman set over others, a patroness,"!12 She was not a servant in the way we think of a servant, but a wealthy woman with money to use to travel and to protect and help others. She served as a minister.

Paul greets Nympha among other church leaders and greets her house church. She is the only leader mentioned by name in her town. Col. 4:1513. Lydia had a church meeting in her home, Acts 16:14, 15 and 40. Also Chloe, whose converts are indicated as belonging to Chloe as a group or church14, in 1 Cor 1:11 "For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you." NAS

Paul praises a household of ministers headed by a person named Stephanas or Stephana, a woman's name, the feminine form of Stephen. 1 Cor 16:15-16 "Now I urge you, brethren (you know the household of Stephanas that they were the first fruits of Achaia, and that they have devoted themselves for ministry to the saints), that you also be in subjection to such (meaning such ones, "men" is not in the Greek) and to everyone who helps in the work and labors." NAU

She and her household were the first converts in Achaia, and now her household was devoted to the ministry. The words translated as "they have devoted themselves" could also be "they have appointed or ordained themselves"15. Paul urges the members to be subject to such people, or to subordinate themselves to this household, indicating that he is indeed talking of ministers with authority. Some translations use "such men" but "men" is not in the Greek. Was Stephana having trouble with church members not treating her with respect because she was a female? Notice that Paul rejoiced that she and the two males with her (her sons?) had arrived to re-supply his needs.

Paul is scolding the Corinthians saying that they had not supplied what he needed but Stephana and the two men had arrived and provided for him. Paul concludes his rebuke by saying that people such as this should be acknowledged! (Again "such men", as some translations render, is not in the Greek text.)

Oh brother! Written by a woman [go figure]. Easily refuted, but I'm out of town right now & very busy. Just looked in for a moment.

Still waiting on the biblical example of a woman delivering Scriptural sermons to believers, or even sinners for that matter:____________!

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

He indicates that the Corinthians were not giving Stephana respect or recognition as a minister, but Paul praises her and her household. Because this passage is so clearly speaking of ministers, many try to maintain that Stephana was an abrieviation for a man's name, but Stephana was a Greek female name, and their arguments are partly based on disbelief that a woman could head a household of ministers.

Another woman who was serving as a pastor or evangelist was the woman John writes the book of 2 John to. He addresses her in Greek as "Eklektee kuria", the first word meaning "Chosen of God," Thayer's definition; and the second word, "Kuria" is the feminine form of "Kuros," which means "supreme in authority"16! John writes to her, "It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us." 2 John 1:4. "In the New Testament, pupils or disciples are called children of their teachers, because the latter by their instruction nourish the minds of their pupils and mould their characters"17. Her "children" are as John's "children" in 3 John 1:4, they are her converts to the truth. Again in verse five he refers to her again as "kuria", such a high feminine title of respect that it is used only these two places in the entire New Testament! She was "beloved" "by all who know the truth" and "supreme in authority"! He warns her of a certain deceiver, "do not take him into your house" as her house was obviously a church meeting place. She was clearly a woman John highly regarded and greatly respected. She may have been the apostle Junia once imprisoned with Paul, Romans 16:7, as her actual name is never given. Did John carefully hide her real name, the names of the brethren, and the location of the church because the Roman authorities were searching for her and her converts? At the close of 2 John Paul also mentions, "the children of your chosen (or elect) sister send their greetings" which indicates a second woman chosen by God in an ecclesiastical sense.

Teachers: Many of the previously mentioned women, including Priscilla, Junia, and Phoebe, were also teaching as part of being an evangelist, apostle or minister.

In Conclusion: Eph 4:11-12 "And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ," RSV

Some of God's people are prepared for works of service serving others, "the work of the ministry" by spiritual gifts given by God Himself. God does not consider women to be less deserving of spiritual gifts than men, "For there is no partiality with God" Romans 2:11. He designed both personalities to work well together as spiritual brothers and sisters. Paul realized that God was without prejudice concerning race or sex, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus18 …heirs according to the promise" Gal. 3:28-29. Race, social differences, or our gender are not to disqualify a Christian from serving Christ Jesus. There is a oneness in Christ, and a oneness in being heirs. Both men and women understood they were heirs together looking towards Christ's Kingdom and they worked together as apostles, prophets, prophetesses, evangelists, ministers, and teachers using their spiritual gifts to build the early church.

Read about the =EQUAL to SERVE= Conference for Christian Women
held in Atlanta, Georgia, on Pentecost/Memorial weekend, May 25-27, 2001! Men were also welcome. See the PDF or HTML flyer and Reservation form for more details.


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1 Other apostles beyond the twelve include Paul, Col. 1:1, Barnabas in Acts 14:3,4; and Epaphroditis, an "apostolon" mentioned in Phil. 2:25; and also many "apostoloi" in 2 Cor. 8:23.
2 "outstanding" or "of note" is from the word episemos Strong's number 1978, defined by Strong's Greek Hebrew Dictionary as "remarkable, eminent".
3 The Greek en. "the preposition en always has the idea of 'within.' In the plural en is translated 'among' although it still has the basic idea of 'within.'" Pg 108, Beyond the Curse by Aida Besancon Spencer.
4 Bible abbreviations are: NIV, New International Version; NAS, New American Standard; NAU New American Standard Update; RSV, Revised Standard Version; KJV King James Version; NKJ, New King James.
5 Thayer's Greek Definitions "a Christian woman at Rome" 2458 Iounias.
6Article by Karen Jo Torjesen, a researcher of this subject, U.S. News and World Report, August 10, 1998, page 52.
7 Ektithemi, Strong's 1620.
8 sunathleo (soon-ath-leh'-o), Strong's 4866, defined as "to wrestle in company with".
9 Phoebe was a diakonos, Strong's 1249, "a Christian teacher and pastor", Translated "minister" in all the following scriptures, Matt. 20:26, Mark 10:43, Romans 13:4,8, 2Cor 3:6, 2 Cor 6:4, 2 Cor11:15,23, Gal. 2:17, Eph 3:7, 6:21, Col 1:7,23,25; Col 4:7 and 1Tim 4:6.
10 sunistao (soon-is-tah'-o); Strong's 4921, to introduce (favorably).
11 Translated as "minister" by Greek scholar Alfred Marshall, The Interlinear NASB-NIV parallel New Testament in Greek and English, page 477.
12prostatis- Strong's 4368, defined by Thayer's as "a woman set over others, a female guardian, a protectress, a patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources."
13 The KJV and the NKJ are in error in this passage about the female Nympha, see the NIV, NAU, NAS, or RSV which all read "her house".
14 Some translations add "house" or "household of Chloe" which is not in the Greek text.
15 See Thayer's Bible Definitions for tasso, 5021.
16 See Strong's definition 2962
17 Thayer's reference on children, "teknois" Strong's 5043.
18 "in Christ Jesus" indicates in the church, and this oneness refers to the present, not the future. See Col 1:24, and Romans 25:5, 16:3,9; 1 Peter 5:14, 1 Thes 3:2.

Will print this out when I get home & critique it. Already see many erroneous notions that diametrically oppose the text.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

While I may not agree with all people write concerning women ministers there is no way to rightfuuly deny that they ministered...

To deny they ministered is to deny ACTS 8:3,4....for both men and women were put in prison and both men (they) that were not preached everywhere...
To deny a woman rightto minister is to deny her the right to use the gifts that come from God...
To deny her the right to minister is to be in false doctirine..

Why sure there is! Right from the Bible. I Tim. 2:11-15 & I Cor. 14:34. Already dealt w/ Acts 8. The women were in PRISON......silly!

[Sister Alvear]

no NOT ALL WOMEN WERE IN PRISON...LOL

[rdp]

I could go on & on, but you apparently believe the words of man over the words of God in this matter. Why? Because it's what you want to believe.

As for me & my house, we're sticking w/ the Book, not man's explaining away the Book!