Ah here is where I ask.... Let me word this right so I am not misunderstood. Where in the scripture do you find the example that when someone preached that they had to be obeyed because of the office of "preacher" was held by said person. Does that make since?
I don't see it in that light. I see the authority of the scriptures being spoken, not necessarily the person, or because they gave themselves a title.
The Word is to be obeyed. If in doing that, I'm also obeying the preacher, so be it. But I am not obeying the preacher simply because he's a preacher. Does that make sense?
That's what I meant by seeing the examples in scripture. Deborah was obeyed NOT because she was a woman speaking the Word of God, but because she was speaking the Word of God. They weren't her words, but the words of God.
The same with Peter, John, David, Paul, and all the other Beatl.....I mean, Apostles and prophets.
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I don't see it in that light. I see the authority of the scriptures being spoken, not necessarily the person, or because they gave themselves a title.
The Word is to be obeyed. If in doing that, I'm also obeying the preacher, so be it. But I am not obeying the preacher simply because he's a preacher. Does that make sense?
That's what I meant by seeing the examples in scripture. Deborah was obeyed NOT because she was a woman speaking the Word of God, but because she was speaking the Word of God. They weren't her words, but the words of God.
The same with Peter, John, David, Paul, and all the other Beatl.....I mean, Apostles and prophets.
I agree the word is to be obeyed. BUT, We have gotten so far from what the word is truely saying that when we say the word is to be obeyed man has put his own translations to the word and most of what man teaches to be commandments of God are just mans traditions and not doctrine. Even things that seem to be cut and dried like women not wearing pants is not a bible commandment but mans tradition. Based on mans iterpretation of Deut. 22:5. We are all to preach the Gospel, but what is the gospel? It is not holiness standards, the oneness of the Godhead, or any number of other religious doctrines that man teaches as commandments of God. The Gospel is very simply the good news that Jesus died for our sin that we can now have the comunion restored with our creater that was lost when Adam and Eve sinned. This preaching can be done by both man and women. As what we call the ministry, God did not intend for man to be set up over a church or group of people as we have in our churches today. This is trying to replace the preisthood of the OT and Jesus is our high preist we no longer need a preist or one that fills that office.
Take the Judges and Prophets of OT times even they did not control the people as many pastors do in churches today. We have set up pastors for much of the same reason Isreal wanted a king, and the people told Moses that they did not want to hear from God. As you remember the people told Moses they did not want to hear from God that he Moses could relay the word to them and they would obey. This is not the way God wants things to be he wants a personal relationship with his people. But we are too lazy we would rather have a pastor or preacher tell us what things we should do or should not do that way we don't have to commune with God ourselves. Or for that matter study the word. I have said this before but I will say it again, Ephesians 4 tells us God gave the church those that were called to minister for three reasons. One the perfecting of the saints. I checked the word perfecting out in a couple of sourses Vines, and Strongs and this word is taken in the wrong light. It more accuratly means to equip the saints. This brings things into a new light. Two for the work of the ministry, this word means to serve, or be in attendance, to aid. And Three for the edifing of the body of Christ. Or building of the body of Christ. Nowhere are they given authority as the ministry has taken in religious bodies today.
1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Verse 3 is quit clear we are not to be Lords, but examples to the flock. Peter I might add did not call himself a pastor or a apostle or any thing else like we do he simply called hiself and elder. One of many.
Just some thoughts
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Study the word with and open heart For if you do, Truth Will Prevail
I agree the word is to be obeyed. BUT, We have gotten so far from what the word is truely saying that when we say the word is to be obeyed man has put his own translations to the word and most of what man teaches to be commandments of God are just mans traditions and not doctrine. Even things that seem to be cut and dried like women not wearing pants is not a bible commandment but mans tradition. Based on mans iterpretation of Deut. 22:5. We are all to preach the Gospel, but what is the gospel? It is not holiness standards, the oneness of the Godhead, or any number of other religious doctrines that man teaches as commandments of God. The Gospel is very simply the good news that Jesus died for our sin that we can now have the comunion restored with our creater that was lost when Adam and Eve sinned. This preaching can be done by both man and women. As what we call the ministry, God did not intend for man to be set up over a church or group of people as we have in our churches today. This is trying to replace the preisthood of the OT and Jesus is our high preist we no longer need a preist or one that fills that office.
Take the Judges and Prophets of OT times even they did not control the people as many pastors do in churches today. We have set up pastors for much of the same reason Isreal wanted a king, and the people told Moses that they did not want to hear from God. As you remember the people told Moses they did not want to hear from God that he Moses could relay the word to them and they would obey. This is not the way God wants things to be he wants a personal relationship with his people. But we are too lazy we would rather have a pastor or preacher tell us what things we should do or should not do that way we don't have to commune with God ourselves. Or for that matter study the word. I have said this before but I will say it again, Ephesians 4 tells us God gave the church those that were called to minister for three reasons. One the perfecting of the saints. I checked the word perfecting out in a couple of sourses Vines, and Strongs and this word is taken in the wrong light. It more accuratly means to equip the saints. This brings things into a new light. Two for the work of the ministry, this word means to serve, or be in attendance, to aid. And Three for the edifing of the body of Christ. Or building of the body of Christ. Nowhere are they given authority as the ministry has taken in religious bodies today.
1Pe 5:1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
1Pe 5:2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
1Pe 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Verse 3 is quit clear we are not to be Lords, but examples to the flock. Peter I might add did not call himself a pastor or a apostle or any thing else like we do he simply called hiself and elder. One of many.
Just some thoughts
And those are excellent thoughts also. I agree that men have taken their own initiative to translate what they think scripture is saying and preach it as doctrine without scriptural verification, or even seeking God on the matter.
My boyfriend attends a Nazarene church. He doesn't understand why Apostolics have to have church for 2 hours, as his is about 45 minutes. He said they sing a couple songs and the preacher preaches a few minutes and they go home. So simple. LOL!
I've never been to his church, but might visit a time or two. I was raised Apostolic, so going to church for 2 hours isn't a big deal to me.
Thanks for your thoughts though. I agree with what you said.
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And those are excellent thoughts also. I agree that men have taken their own initiative to translate what they think scripture is saying and preach it as doctrine without scriptural verification, or even seeking God on the matter.
My boyfriend attends a Nazarene church. He doesn't understand why Apostolics have to have church for 2 hours, as his is about 45 minutes. He said they sing a couple songs and the preacher preaches a few minutes and they go home. So simple. LOL!
I've never been to his church, but might visit a time or two. I was raised Apostolic, so going to church for 2 hours isn't a big deal to me.
Thanks for your thoughts though. I agree with what you said.
I have never been to a Nazarene church but if the word is preached that is what is important. Since we left UPCI we attend a independent church the worship is wonderful and moving and the word pertains to the saints lives in ways that I never experianced in UPCI. The word of prophecy is also life changing as I can testify to. I have found that I don't tie myself down to a church because God wants to be able to lead us to new heights in relationship with him.
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Study the word with and open heart For if you do, Truth Will Prevail
I have never been to a Nazarene church but if the word is preached that is what is important. Since we left UPCI we attend a independent church the worship is wonderful and moving and the word pertains to the saints lives in ways that I never experianced in UPCI. The word of prophecy is also life changing as I can testify to. I have found that I don't tie myself down to a church because God wants to be able to lead us to new heights in relationship with him.
I have not attended church in several months, but have visited my former UPC church a couple times. It's not that I feel uncomfortable in attending there, but knowing what they believe and that I don't, well, why bother?
But since finding out that GraceAmazing and her husband took over as pastor of the local Apostolic church (don't know if it's independent or what, but it's not UPC), I might attend that one again. I tried it before but wasn't feeling a connection. However, they didn't have a pastor since he passed away last April. Maybe that's the difference. Wonderful folks there, and they believe as I do.
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Heavenlyone: I also looked up Vine's definition & I found absolutely nothing in the word "prostatis" denoting a "woman set over others." Strong's & Vine's both define the word as an "assistant, helper, patroness" & not one, single reliable translation adopts your peculiar rendering [or Sinatra's, by the way]. So I spoke w/ a Greek professor who teaches at a Bible college in WV [David Adams] & he acknowledged to me that "Succourer" simply means "Helper, Assistant". Hmmm, I guess you folks see something that approximately 1000 Greek linguistical scholars/translators didn't???????? Not hardly.
Anna was in the house of God? Yes, but where does the text say that she was "preaching the Word":______________? More blanks that you cannot fill! Need Scripture illustrating where expounding from the Scriptures is defined as "Preaching"? Glad to oblige. "And Phillip PREACHED to him Jesus..." [Acts 8]. Phillip was expounding to the eunuch from the book of Isaiah....which the God-Breathed Scriptures declares was "preached" to him. Hmmm. Pls. provide the Biblical example where a woman EVER ONCE did so:__________? Those pesky blanks!
And, no, we do not wear watches or wedding rings based upon numerous Scriptures...which you'll conveniently ignore [as you've done w/ I Tim. 2, I Cor. 14, etc. for about the 5th time now], or try to explain away [to no avail]. I've already dealt w/ I Tim. 3 & the femine gender of "office" [to which you never responded, go figure]. But, let me help you out again. This same word is translated as "day of visitation" in relation to the 2nd coming & to Judas's office in Acts 1...both of which are filled by [read slowly] M-E-N! It's sim[ply to Greek noun "office" that's feminine, but the one who fills that office is ALWAYS in the Masculine [as the context of I Tim. 3 clearly shows]! It's really difficult to defend the undefendable...try again!
I forget who it was [perhaps Sinatra, or Godsdrummer], but someone stated that I Tim. was not dealing w/ a "church setting"? Sorry Charlie: "These things write I unto you that you may know how to behave thyself IN THE HOUSE OF GOD, which IS THE CHURCH....." Just don't get it do you??????
I Tim. is indeed dealing w/ church order, as well as I Cor. 14, whether there be a pullpit or sanctuary matters not [this particular argument is sooo silly that I've not even acknowledged it]. The "Church" is the "Ecclesia," or "called out ones"....not lost sinners who have not obeyed Acts 2:38 salvation.
You're mixing context...which reveals your shoddy scholarship [among many other things]. Besides, what's the use arguing w/ someone who dates a trinitarian???????
I almost fell out of my chair when I read this: "....you refuse to see what the Word says....Priscilla taught the Word to 'the church'"
Absolutely unreeeeeeal. Where does the "Word" state that:____________? How in the world can you charge someone w/ ignoring the Word, then import your own words into the literal text of the same??????????? But then again, this is the same reason that you believe in women preachers...your own ideas!
Still waiting on someone to deal w/ I Tim. 2:11-15, & I Cor. 14:34. Godsdrummer attempted to, but was so silly that I do not even feel like dealing w/ it. He did say that I Tim. 2 was "not in a church setting"....say what? "These things write I unto you that thou mayest know how to behave thyself in the HOUSE OF GOD, which is the CHURCH....." Sheesh, what more do you want?
O, yea, the Bible says that the donkey spake in a "M-A-N-'s voice"...not a woman's [2 Ptr.]. Sheesh, you folks just refuse to believe the Bible. Very busy......Believe what you will....I'll keep the Wod & you can have all of this philosophy. "I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man....these things write I unto you that you may know how to behave yourself in the HOUSE OF GOD, which is THE CHURCH..."
[QUOTE=rdp;812114]
Still waiting on someone to deal w/ I Tim. 2:11-15, & I Cor. 14:34. Godsdrummer attempted to, but was so silly that I do not even feel like dealing w/ it. He did say that I Tim. 2 was "not in a church setting"....say what? "These things write I unto you that thou mayest know how to behave thyself in the HOUSE OF GOD, which is the CHURCH....." Sheesh, what more do you want?
Oh wow Paul can't change subjects from chapter 2 to chapter 3? I seems you have not read my post in completion or all of them no wonder you can't see what the word says if you just want to prove what you beleive, anyone can take scripture out of context to make it say what they want it to say. The Pharisee of Christ day did just that. You say you have many scripture to back up not wearing rings etc. then I rest my case for there are not one passage that speaks to that. Some won't see what is right before their eyes but thats ok read and understand Romans 14.
__________________
Study the word with and open heart For if you do, Truth Will Prevail
I almost fell out of my chair when I read this: "....you refuse to see what the Word says....Priscilla taught the Word to 'the church'"
Absolutely unreeeeeeal. Where does the "Word" state that:____________? How in the world can you charge someone w/ ignoring the Word, then import your own words into the literal text of the same??????????? But then again, this is the same reason that you believe in women preachers...your own ideas!
Still waiting on someone to deal w/ I Tim. 2:11-15, & I Cor. 14:34. Godsdrummer attempted to, but was so silly that I do not even feel like dealing w/ it. He did say that I Tim. 2 was "not in a church setting"....say what? "These things write I unto you that thou mayest know how to behave thyself in the HOUSE OF GOD, which is the CHURCH....." Sheesh, what more do you want?
O, yea, the Bible says that the donkey spake in a "M-A-N-'s voice"...not a woman's [2 Ptr.]. Sheesh, you folks just refuse to believe the Bible. Very busy......Believe what you will....I'll keep the Wod & you can have all of this philosophy. "I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man....these things write I unto you that you may know how to behave yourself in the HOUSE OF GOD, which is THE CHURCH..."
THe more I read what you post, the more I like ya!
I happen to agree with these last 2posts of yours..
AMEN to them! Don't feel so bad, there are a few others that think
like yourself around, its just that this gal won't waste any more precious little
time on this particular topic.
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by what they say about others...than by what others
say about them.
Don't feel so bad, there are a few others that think
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