Speaking of vacations (on another thread), I'm back. Took a break.
What To Believe
There are many factors at work in forming and revising our religious beliefs: what our parents believe and taught us to believe is probably the biggest factor, for many people. Some believe what "works" for them. In many cases, too, we prefer to believe not just what "works", but also what agrees with us. What do I mean by that? For example, if I find homosexuality repulsive, I may want to follow a religion that condemns it. I would like to see it eradicated, so I don't have to see it in day to day life or on TV. I would want it to be evil, so those who practice it might "repent" of it and stop! So, in that sense, I agree with those religions. I would also tend to think religions that don't condemn homosexuality are wrong. (There are many other reasons for thinking they are wrong, of course, but this is just one example.)
Another, similar factor: what makes sense to me. I hear the story of a religion and it either makes sense or it doesn't. I may also feel something within me that seems to confirm what I am hearing is true or not. Maybe it's the Holy Spirit, or maybe I just think it is, but it's really "me" agreeing or disagreeing with what I hear: it is making sense, or not. (Though I have no idea how anyone could tell whether it is the Holy Spirit or just "me"!) And maybe the story is making promises about things that are bothering me, and I see it as a way out of my troubles. That is also a big factor for a lot of people: what can believing and obeying this do for me?
A prophet hears from God, writes down what he hears, and expects everyone to believe it and obey it. Do I believe what the prophet tells me, and that it came from God? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on whether it makes sense to me. Is that arrogant? Unwise, perhaps? Who am I to judge if what God has (ostensibly) told this prophet makes sense or not? I'm just a man. My mind is finite. God is God. His mind is infinite. It should not surprise me that what the Infinite Mind has said may not make sense to this finite mind. And if these nonsensical (to me) things really did come from God Himself, despite my opinion, I suppose it would be very unwise not to heed them. The consequences could be tragic! On the flip side, believing something that didn't really come from God could be equally tragic. And even if it turns out there is no after-life, that tragedy could be manifested in many ways here in this life.
So we finite humans are presented with a dilemma (assuming we, for some reason, need to believe at least some of the supposed prophets of God): there have been many prophets throughout history, and their messages are not compatible with each other. Is it possible that the Infinite Mind has given them all those incompatible messages, for some reason that only He knows? Would He say both "X" and "not X", thus performing the miracle of violating the laws of logic?
Well, that would not make sense to me. So I would answer no, God would not say two (or more) things that contradict each other. But there I go again, presuming to know better than God (according to those prophets). I mean, why wouldn't God say contradictory things, if He wanted to? His ways are above our ways (says a prophet )! Don't put God in a box (say a lot of people )! Maybe one-steppers and three-steppers are both right! Oneness and Trinity! Catholics and Protestants! Christians and Muslims!
Now you're thinking I've completely lost it. (And maybe I have! ) But there is a way out of the dilemma. Many ways, actually, which gets back to the factors involved in what we believe. These factors, as ways out of the dilemma, differ in their validity, IMO. Possibly the least valid way is blindly following what your parents taught you. I said "blindly"! If that's the only reason you have, well, you are just gambling. You think you are lucky enough to be born into a family that follows the right religion. I guess you'll find out when it's too late to fix it (assuming there is an eternal life, and it will be good or bad depending on what you believed in this life).
I think the best way is this, which I have discussed above: believe what makes sense to you. That's what I do, and that's probably what you do. Of course, this is also a gamble. But I contend that it is our best gamble. The other methods have some merit -- perhaps God designed us (some of us?) to recoil at the idea of homosexuality, or to find comfort in (some of) the promises made by God through supposed prophets centuries ago (or last week), or simply to believe what we are taught (regardless of the other factors). Or He may give us a feeling inside when we hear truth. Well, if He designed something into us to guide us into the right way, or if He actively puts feelings or thoughts inside us to guide us, He didn't do a very good job. Unless one of those ways that are above our ways is to guide us all in wildly different paths! But would that make sense?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Speaking of vacations (on another thread), I'm back. Took a break.
What To Believe
There are many factors at work in forming and revising our religious beliefs: what our parents believe and taught us to believe is probably the biggest factor, for many people. Some believe what "works" for them. In many cases, too, we prefer to believe not just what "works", but also what agrees with us. What do I mean by that? For example, if I find homosexuality repulsive, I may want to follow a religion that condemns it. I would like to see it eradicated, so I don't have to see it in day to day life or on TV. I would want it to be evil, so those who practice it might "repent" of it and stop! So, in that sense, I agree with those religions. I would also tend to think religions that don't condemn homosexuality are wrong. (There are many other reasons for thinking they are wrong, of course, but this is just one example.)
Another, similar factor: what makes sense to me. I hear the story of a religion and it either makes sense or it doesn't. I may also feel something within me that seems to confirm what I am hearing is true or not. Maybe it's the Holy Spirit, or maybe I just think it is, but it's really "me" agreeing or disagreeing with what I hear: it is making sense, or not. (Though I have no idea how anyone could tell whether it is the Holy Spirit or just "me"!) And maybe the story is making promises about things that are bothering me, and I see it as a way out of my troubles. That is also a big factor for a lot of people: what can believing and obeying this do for me?
A prophet hears from God, writes down what he hears, and expects everyone to believe it and obey it. Do I believe what the prophet tells me, and that it came from God? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on whether it makes sense to me. Is that arrogant? Unwise, perhaps? Who am I to judge if what God has (ostensibly) told this prophet makes sense or not? I'm just a man. My mind is finite. God is God. His mind is infinite. It should not surprise me that what the Infinite Mind has said may not make sense to this finite mind. And if these nonsensical (to me) things really did come from God Himself, despite my opinion, I suppose it would be very unwise not to heed them. The consequences could be tragic! On the flip side, believing something that didn't really come from God could be equally tragic. And even if it turns out there is no after-life, that tragedy could be manifested in many ways here in this life.
So we finite humans are presented with a dilemma (assuming we, for some reason, need to believe at least some of the supposed prophets of God): there have been many prophets throughout history, and their messages are not compatible with each other. Is it possible that the Infinite Mind has given them all those incompatible messages, for some reason that only He knows? Would He say both "X" and "not X", thus performing the miracle of violating the laws of logic?
Well, that would not make sense to me. So I would answer no, God would not say two (or more) things that contradict each other. But there I go again, presuming to know better than God (according to those prophets). I mean, why wouldn't God say contradictory things, if He wanted to? His ways are above our ways (says a prophet )! Don't put God in a box (say a lot of people )! Maybe one-steppers and three-steppers are both right! Oneness and Trinity! Catholics and Protestants! Christians and Muslims!
Now you're thinking I've completely lost it. (And maybe I have! ) But there is a way out of the dilemma. Many ways, actually, which gets back to the factors involved in what we believe. These factors, as ways out of the dilemma, differ in their validity, IMO. Possibly the least valid way is blindly following what your parents taught you. I said "blindly"! If that's the only reason you have, well, you are just gambling. You think you are lucky enough to be born into a family that follows the right religion. I guess you'll find out when it's too late to fix it (assuming there is an eternal life, and it will be good or bad depending on what you believed in this life).
I think the best way is this, which I have discussed above: believe what makes sense to you. That's what I do, and that's probably what you do. Of course, this is also a gamble. But I contend that it is our best gamble. The other methods have some merit -- perhaps God designed us (some of us?) to recoil at the idea of homosexuality, or to find comfort in (some of) the promises made by God through supposed prophets centuries ago (or last week), or simply to believe what we are taught (regardless of the other factors). Or He may give us a feeling inside when we hear truth. Well, if He designed something into us to guide us into the right way, or if He actively puts feelings or thoughts inside us to guide us, He didn't do a very good job. Unless one of those ways that are above our ways is to guide us all in wildly different paths! But would that make sense?
Interesting post, enjoyed it. Petty and Cacioppo's "Elaboration Likelihood Model" (ELM) details two of the primary processing routes of reasoning. Peripheral route, in which a person relies on limited involvement, and makes executive judgments based on some arrangement of (trivial) persuasions. And the central route, which requires a person to utilize the highest forms of thought. Imo, the central is often underdeveloped and not often exercised by most good people concerning the above topics. Most people are willing to accept the things told them, or trained into them, by authority figures in their life. I believe you hit upon the key thing though...synergy
Last edited by noeticknight; 09-21-2009 at 12:02 AM.
My next topic, coming in the next day or two, will be:
What You Believe
Enough about the garbage that I believe! I'm going to try to distill the many expressed beliefs I've read here on AFF, to see if I can come up with a list that all Apostolics can agree to. (And no, it won't be a smart-alec list, like an empty one or something! I hope! )
Wish me luck!
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Well, I haven't been able to devote much time to this, so I thought I'd start a series. Let's get one thing out of the way first. This one's easy. It may be the #1 most agreed-to belief on AFF. Can you guess what I'm thinking of? Need a hint? It's one of the most important beliefs you guys have (based on how people write so emphatically about it), and it seems to be very important to you that everyone (Apostolic or not) agrees with you about it. Oh, there's some arguing over the details, but every Apostolic.... oops. Hang on. I just remembered. It's not quite every Apostolic.
Oh man, this is going to be harder than I thought. The belief I was going to list first was this: homosexuality is evil. Now, sure, a lot of Apostolics think that all real Apostolics agree to that. But what I'm trying to write about in this series is things that everyone who claims to be Apostolic agrees about.
Back to the drawing board!
OK, here's a better one. This, I think, every Apostolic does agree with. I'm make this the new Number One:
1. The Bible is God's Word
So far, so good? Again, maybe some details are up for discussion, but that's pretty basic, and certainly the most important belief. It all starts there, right?
Oh, and it may go without saying, but I'll say it anyway: in my attempt to write about things you all believe, correct me if I'm wrong!
Now, to expand on Number One a bit (with the risk of getting into some details that are "up for discussion" ), the Bible, though it was physically written by mere humans, was inspired by God Himself. For example, whoever wrote the book of Hebrews sat down one day, put pen to paper, maybe asking God to guide him and "tell" him what to say. Maybe he wrote down things that he'd heard from others (oral tradition), maybe he wrote things he heard God tell him to write, or maybe it was some other method. But whatever the actual mechanism was, the book turned out just as God wanted it to.
How am I doing?
Further, I'll go out on a limb here and say that you all consider God's Word to be the sixty-six books that most Protestants today call The Bible. No other books should be included, and none of the sixty-six should be removed.
Well, that's about as far as I can take this particular belief. Most Apostolics would conclude that, since it is inspired by God, it must therefore be perfect -- infallible. Probably the vast majority. But many would qualify that in some way. Today's translations, and even the extant ancient texts we have (no originals, all are copies), are somewhat flawed: transcription errors, and even some deliberate additions or deletions or changes. But, they would say, these discrepancies are not serious enough (or we can safely determine which versions are really correct) that we can't call the Bible, our favorite translation that we normally read and study, "God's Word". It's "close enough".
Number 1, of course, is not peculiar to Apostolics, or to Pentecostals. Maybe Number 2 will be, but I haven't decided yet what it's going to be!
End of Part 1.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
"Man" is bad. Very, very bad. Every human being ever born (with one Exception ) is evil, and was born that way. (OK, there were a couple of other exceptions: Adam and Ever weren't born evil. But that's for another post.) They live their lives, do some things that may look good, and some things that look (and are) bad, then they die. All this time, there is no other way to describe them, morally, than evil. Their "righteousness" is filthy rags. This may be at least somewhat hyperbolic, but really, their "goodness" is just not good enough! They can't be good enough to earn a reward in the afterlife. I don't know why people even try!
In fact, nobody ever born deserves anything other than death! Yeah. We're that bad. Oh, sure, if you take certain measures (believe certain things, perhaps do certain things, obey certain things, whatever the right formula is, and that is not a topic for another post in this series, because this series, if you recall, is about things Apostolics agree on! ), God will see you as righteous. But that's "imputed righteousness", which just means that it comes from someone or something else, other than you. Still, this imputed righteousness leads to an undeserved reward in the end, instead of the punishment you deserve. Isn't that cool? You don't have to be good to be rewarded for being good!
On the other hand, if you don't have this imputed righteousness when you die, well, you receive the punishment you deserve. Isn't that sad? That's so sad, in fact, that many people devote their lives to preventing that punishment for as many bad people as they can. They are "rescuing" the bad people from that deserved punishment, and bringing them into that undeserved reward I mentioned.
Isn't that cool?
End of Part 2. How am I doing?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
He's been doing this for a long time. Milennia! He had conversations with Adam. Told Abraham what to do, a number of times. Likewise Moses, Jonah, and a bunch of others. Put Job in his place ("Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?"). Explained to Paul why he's stuck with his thorn. Etc., etc.
Now-a-days, He's still at it. He tells preachers what to preach about. He gives people specific commands. Talks about other people ("words of knowledge"). Etc., etc.
And when God talks to you, never mind that some other folks may not believe you. You know that you know that you know.
But there are fakes! No doubt about that. The Bible talks about false prophets. We see false prophets on TV, today (some say). So, how can we tell? There are some guidelines for us in the scriptures. For one thing, if a supposed prophet predicts something that doesn't happen: bzzzt! False prophet. And it must "line up with scripture", or else bzzzt!
And then, there is this fool-proof method in 1 John 4:
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
It's so easy!
Uh oh. I may have stumbled on another somewhat disputed belief. Perhaps there are some who don't quite believe that this method will always work, just as written. I mean, what if you asked a Trinitarian "prophet" whether he believes Jesus Christ is come in the flesh? What if he says "yes"? Do you just accept it, and accept his prophecies? Probably gets kind of complicated. Maybe you have to dig into the guy's theology, and see if his "Christ" is the same as your "Christ".
But, the bottom line is this: God speaks to His people, even in this day and age. And His people would do well to listen, when He does! (And when they're right about it being from God!)
Am I right?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
)! Don't put God in a box (say a lot of people 
) But there is a way out of the dilemma. Many ways, actually, which gets back to the factors involved in what we believe. These factors, as ways out of the dilemma, differ in their validity, IMO. Possibly the least valid way is blindly following what your parents taught you. I said "blindly"! If that's the only reason you have, well, you are just gambling. You think you are lucky enough to be born into a family that follows the right religion. I guess you'll find out when it's too late to fix it (assuming there is an eternal life, and it will be good or bad depending on what you believed in this life). 
) 
), God will see you as righteous. But that's "imputed righteousness", which just means that it comes from someone or something else, other than you. Still, this imputed righteousness leads to an undeserved reward in the end, instead of the punishment you deserve. Isn't that cool? You don't have to be good to be rewarded for being good!
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