After reading your post more thoroughly, I now realize the Baptism Christ spoke of!
Matt 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Matt 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! (The following day Christ was crucified)
He was actually saying "But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straightened till it be accomplished being dunked in some water".
and
"Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to get dunked in some water, the baptism that I am baptized with? It's really difficult, do you think you're capable of getting dunked in some water and have an emotional experience?!"
Baptizo and Baptizmos mean so much more than merely dunking. I've been talking with Bro. Blume about this for days. Baptism can also mean "washing", "cleansing", or be a euphemism or idiom to represent a traumatic experience. We use it in the phrase "baptized by fire" when someone is just thrown into a situation they are unprepared for. The meaning of this word is very dynamic and expansive.
You sound like a pompous fool with your false humility.
You call a Babylonian Rabbi your friend? A friend of the world is the enemy of God.
Stasis, what's really eating at you right now? Certainly you can't have this much animosity built up over a difference in opinion over water baptism. What happened? Talk to me.
Amen!! That is one reason why I hesitate to identify myself with Apostolics. That and the fact that many of them are "everybody-is-going-to-hell-but-me-and-those-exactly-like-me attitude."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila
You see, modern day Apostolics are making the same error as Trinitarians. We've codified the name of Jesus into a "formula" to be spoken by a minister at the moment of water baptism. We've missed it entirely. The issue isn't what someone is saying over you when your baptized, the issue is that water baptism is the moment NT Christians had converts call on the name to be saved. Baptism isn't a time for formulas... it's a time to prayerfully call upon the name of the Lord, asking that your sins be washed away; just as Paul was told.
Amen!! That is one reason why I hesitate to identify myself with Apostolics. That and the fact that many of them are "everybody-is-going-to-hell-but-me-and-those-exactly-like-me attitude."
I've done something similar. I've refused to identify myself as a United Pentecostal. I'm an "Apostolic Christian". I believe in the Oneness of God, Acts 2:38, and common sense Christian living. I don't identify with the exclusivism or the legalism. I'm not big on big religion or organized religion. I'm turning to house churching. I believe in water baptism's necessity, but I believe in pouring over immersion. I believe that the convert is to call upon the name of Jesus at the moment they are water baptized, it doesn't matter what anyone says over them if they are not calling on the name themselves. I believe many Christians in the traditional church down through the ages called on the name of Jesus for salvation when baptized and God honored that... even though a priest uttered a traditional trinitarian formula. On the flip side, I believe that many Apostolic preachers have spoken the name of Jesus over individuals being water baptized but those individuals didn't receive remission because they themselves were relying on the preacher's words and not calling upon the name themselves.
I'm Apostolic... I'm just not UPCI, ALJC, PAW, WWPF, ALF, AMF, ABC, 123, or any of the other alphabet soup denominations. I just don't identify with them.
Nothing YOU can do will make you his, but what Christ does THROUGH YOU, and to you. Through Christ we can do all things, like be persecuted and bear a cross. Christ imposes his instruction upon us, and makes us DOERS, and this by his grace alone in choosing us before time, to form us into doers of his Word.
So... bearing your cross and doing what Christ says is "no action/responsibility". Yeah, that makes sense. Following Christ is "doing nothing". Being conformed to the image of Christ throughout your entire life, which involves suffering, is sitting around doing "nothing". I speak in sarcasm.
What do you do to a robot? You write an instruction upon it's circuitry. What does God do to us? He writes his laws upon our hearts. Yes, if you are God's you WILL, LIKE A ROBOT, DO HIS WILL. We are spiritual robots.
Opinion is 'opinios', which means, to think for one's self. I have no opinion but the Word of God. We must crucify our opinions and let God's Word think for us.
No, it isn't fatalism, it's blood baptism and the sovereign power of God alone, who stands above man's will.
What say you? It's unfair for God to choose one above another? What man calls unfair, God calls Grace, intervening through Christ the intercessor. What is fair? Fair is EVERYONE GOING TO HELL.
Brother, this is above and beyond even the usual discussions here on AFF, and is outright false doctrine.
It's one baptism, with one element, the living water, which is the blood of Christ.
Blood was called 'living water' by the Jews. Remember when Christ told the woman about drinking the living water? Then told the disciples to drink of the cup which is his blood?
The Jews had a custom or tendency to speak in doubles which referred to the same thing, to solidify their point. "The water and the spirit" is one of many examples in scripture.
Spirit = Blood of Christ = Living Water = Truth
One baptism, one element.
The actual washing with literal water was the Jewish Proselyte Baptism, to be done along with offering of turtle doves and circumcision. This was an ordinance nailed to the cross by christ (a nullified contract), which Christ's disciples later figured out (some were still washing people in water early in their ministries), particularly Paul who stated later that he came not to baptize with water (being adamant that the New Jerusalem Church not be amalgamated into the old Judaism, but which the 'Jews' were constantly demanding), and Peter who (in the actual Greek text) said "The water, forbid!", not "Can any man forbid water?" (as in the poorly translated english passage), to the Egyptian Eunuch who was on the way to Jerusalem to undergo becoming a Jew (the proselyte baptism)
So what then was the significance of blood and water coming out of Christ's pierced side, or was it all one and the same?
There is so much wrong with the above paragraph I'm not sure where to start. My wife's family is half Jewish. The "Jewish Proselyte Baptism" you speak of isn't in the Bible, it's a post-exilic tradition. In addition Jewish mikveh was to be performed nude, none of the baptisms of the Apostles or even the John the Baptist were part of this man made tradition.
Also Paul never said that he wasn't sent to baptize... you have to read it in context. Let's take a look. To the Corinthians Paul wrote...
I Corinthians 1:11-17
11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
The issue was that there were contentions among the Corinthians because they were boasting over who baptized them as though it made them more spiritual or more Christian. One was saying I'm of Paul, another, I'm of Apollos, and yet another, I'm of Christ. Paul then indicates that they were not baptized in these names, and definitely not his own because he wasn't crucified for them (an allusion to Jesus name baptism). Then Paul is thankful that out of the Corinthians he only baptized Crispus, Gaius, and the household of Stephanas. Paul was thankful because none could say he baptized in his own name. Paul then states that Paul was not sent to baptize, meaning to baptize making coverts after himself, but rather to preach the Gospel (which includes baptism - see Acts 2:38) lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
You have to take an entire passage and it's context into consideration. By just reading verse 17 one would think that Paul wasn't sent to baptize period... but in context we see that Paul meant he wasn't sent to baptize to make disciples after himself. We also know that this is an error because we see Paul baptizing new believers in the book of Acts:
(Acts 19:1-6 KJV)
(1) And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, (2) He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. (3) And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. (4) Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (5) When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (6) And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Paul preached the same Gospel that Peter preached on Pentecost. There is only one Gospel message. The only difference is that while Peter was called to preach to the Jews, Paul was called to preach to the Gentiles. Two distinct missional callings.
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