Good old fashioned prayer will do LOTS of things, and then again it WONT do lots of things. For instance "Good old fashioned prayer" will NOT remove your responsibility to use your common sense, even though in areas where the Circumstances are MUCH bigger than you and you are UNABLE to see your way, God WILL send supernatural direction your way.
Good old fashioned prayer will NOT remove your responsibility to go out and WORK to provide your family or even just your own self with the basic neccessities of life though God WILL intervene supernaturally with miraculous provision when you are UNABLE to do so for yourself.
And also Good old fashioned prayer will NOT bring healing to your body when you refuse to use the natural ability and common sense that God gave you to take care of your own health. Two wonderful Bible examples of men of God prescribing the medicinal treatments of their day rather than performing miracles of healing corroborate this.
In the Old Covenant Isaiah did NOT bring healing to Hezekiah through "Good old fashioned prayer" but rather told him to "Put a fig on it"
And in the New, the Apostle Paul who had been used in miraculous healing after miraculous healing did NOT send Timothy a prayer cloth and tell him to lay this on the afflicted area, but rather told him to use his common sense and "Take a little wine for thy stomaches sake and thine OFT infirmities."
The road you are going down with this thinking is absolutely destructive and while worn as a badge of "Faith" by many is really a badge of self righteous ignorance in so many many cases, leading to the orphaning of children, women and/or their babies being lost in childbirth, and great senseless loss of life that the Lord will SURELY require at someones hand!
I personally remember preaching in a church in the central United States. After the evening service the pastor said "Brother come in the office, I need to take care of a few things and then we will go out and eat."
Sooooo, as I am sitting there next to his desk while he is doing the books or something, his WIFE comes in the office (lovely people by the way but in that frame of mind that you seem to be entertaining) and she walks over to me, kind of pulls back her sleeve over her elbow and says "Brother, look at this, what do you think this is?"
I looked at it and saw an ugly blackish mole growing there, oh not even half the size of a dime, maybe a quarter or an eighth.
Her husband is now glancing at the two of us silently. It did not look good, but I also knew they were of that frame of mind that teaches them to do nothing BUT pray about their healing, not to use the common sense that God gave them to do for themselves what they CAN do and leave the UNdoable in Gods hands.
So I said to her as diplomatically as I could, "Well sister, that does NOT look good! Have you had that LOOKED at?"
As quick as a wink her husband jumps in, "Brother we respect your ministry here, but WE trust the Lord and you just pray for Sister ________ 's
healing."
Well I put that all out of my mind, but then several years later had some visitors visiting me, and the pastors wife asked me, Oh, Brother did you hear that sister _____________ passed away?
At first I thought she was referring to an OLDER sister of the same name, but come to find out No, it was the young one, the mother of a seven year old boy!
"Oh my goodness! How???!!!" I asked!
"Well it all started out as a little mole on her elbow, that grew into a tumor and metastisized through out her body...on and on she went. The cancer was in her brain, in her bones, her kidneys...."
All that went through my mind was "This is as close to murder as I have ever been!"
If that woman had gone to a DOCTOR he would have it taken off with a laser and it would have been outpatient work at that! She would almost certainly be with us today! That boy would STILL have his mother! That woman is dead NOT because of the Lord, NOT because of the cancer but because of an *IGNORANT* "Tempting the Lord" kind of interpretation of the wonderful promise of healing provided for at Calvary.
The funny thing is , the Pastor used that as a badge of his "Trusting the Lord" gaining entre even deeper into the group, quickly remarried, and then a short time later HE keels over dead, leaving the boy with neither mother OR father to raise him.
No, good old fashioned prayer does NOT absolve us of doing everything for ourselves that we have the ability to do, working for our daily bread, shopping for our clothes, and using the medicinal means available to us to keep our bodies HEALTHY.
Working is every bit as much trusting the Lord as going to a doctor.
Sorry to be so long, but wanted to share that personal experience with what can only be called a very deceptive UNgodly doctrine that has left a trail of dead men women boys girls and babies in its wake.
You make it sound as if people are required to go see a doctor because it's common sense to go see one. For people who won't see a doctor, it's a matter of faith of to them, even if it doesn't make sense to anyone around them. I've known five people who have gone out "trusting God." They chose to take that route, and it cost them their lives. For you to come along and refer to their beliefs as ungodly is an insult to these people's faith.
You make it sound as if people are required to go see a doctor because it's common sense to go see one. For people who won't see a doctor, it's a matter of faith of to them, even if it doesn't make sense to anyone around them. I've known five people who have gone out "trusting God." They chose to take that route, and it cost them their lives. For you to come along and refer to their beliefs as ungodly is an insult to these people's faith.
That is a risk I am MORE than willing to take! There is a knee jerk response to any common sense opinion among many of our people and the above is certainly a great example of that. NO consideration is given to the bigger picture which is this..Many people , especially YOUNGER people EMULATE such stupid choices and decisions thinking that they some how are as spiritual or what have you as the idiots that you mention above. They made very selfish self serving choices not considering the affect that their choice may have on others. That is a stupid choice and YOU YOURSELF point out what the cost of that decision was >>>THEIR LIVES! (Incredible that ANYONE could defend such a costly misjudgement, only in Pentecost!)
Just recently a Pastor died from the results of "Trusting the Lord" with a simple boil on the back of his neck, which became infected, then the infection went into his BRAIN and killed him. Do YOU think that the young men and women of that church and others in the area will not be tempted to EMULATE such a decision thinking that this was the SPIRITUAL decision to make? Do YOU think it is insulting to point out in the hearing of any who God might bring into contact with your voice that this was a FOOLISH, COSTLY ERROR IN JUDGEMENT? (Oh wait, you already kind of anwered that didnt you by reacting to my doing that....)
There are too many women with dead babies, too many kids with dead parents, too many wives with dead husbands too many husbands with dead wives to turn a blind eye to this false doctrine and fail to speak up against it. It is after all as YOU so honestly admit a doctrine that costs LIVES!
My mind goes back to an encounter I had with an evangelist who now pastors a very large and thriving church. He had just finished revival in a church that is given over to the kind of nuttiness that you seem to hold in high regard. I asked him how it went. He told me he will NEVER go back there again, they are guilty of innocent blood. I thought he was kidding, just a joke that didn't go over very well and said "What do you mean?" He then described to me his last night there in the Pastors home when they brought out the photo albums, and had a few pages devoted to a most ghoulish collection of photos. Seems the daughter in law who was "Trusting the Lord" had her baby at home shunning any medical care, (One of your noble choices I am sure...) And there were complications in the birth process. None of the "midwives" (read ladies of the church who "don't know nuthin 'bout birthin' no babies") did not know what to do, the baby died shortly after delivery, and the whole family gathered around the bed with this corpse of a baby all dark grey from oxygen deprivation , on a blanket, all of them with their hands raised in worship as one of them commemorated such a holy and tender moment of their "Trusting the Lord" resulting in the death of this infant with a camera. He told me that he wished he had just a little more gumption and he would have called the authorities on the whole lot of them.
The Knee Jerk reaction here being along the lines of "Do you mean to tell me that because my ____________ ( Grandma, Grandpa, Uncle, Aunt, Mama , Daddy YOU fill in the blanketc.) Failed to have wisdom in any point that they were WRONG??? HOW DARE YOU CALL MY___________________WRONG!!!!!
But the truth remains that WONDERFUL and HOLY People can make stupid errors in judgement and their memories are NOT well served by covering them up. God has given us quite a pattern of pointing out the good AND the bad decisions that people make. Not taking common sense care of your body which is the temple of the spirit of God is WRONG any way you paint it.
My question to you is how can you for even a split second honestly defend such ignorance? You must have a very skewed sense of the effect decisions made by a member of the body of Christ have on the rest of the body. Then again, you may not have a vision of the Church as a Corporate Entity but rather just a bunch of islands to themselves.
Don't know...don't care.... Very silly to defend LIFE COSTING ERRORS!
O-Man, I dont think you can say that. the greek word Pharmika is where we get our word pharmacy from but that doesnt imply that the modern understanding of a drug like Amnioterone (sp) which corrects vintricular tachacardia is = to witchcraft.
we are talking about the ancient understanding of mind altering drugs, that were then used to put people into a state where they could "commune" with the spirits.
LSD yes. bad mojo
Asprin no. Good mojo.
LSD very bad mojo......@ 16 years old it took two police men, two paramedics and my father to get me on a stretcher. [ only 135 lbs ]
I had a bad trip.....then a trip to the ER to come down.
That is a risk I am MORE than willing to take! There is a knee jerk response to any common sense opinion among many of our people and the above is certainly a great example of that. NO consideration is given to the bigger picture which is this..Many people , especially YOUNGER people EMULATE such stupid choices and decisions thinking that they some how are as spiritual or what have you as the idiots that you mention above. They made very selfish self serving choices not considering the affect that their choice may have on others. That is a stupid choice and YOU YOURSELF point out what the cost of that decision was >>>THEIR LIVES! (Incredible that ANYONE could defend such a costly misjudgement, only in Pentecost!)
Your attitude stinks, TCSQ. My former pastor, and the others I have known that died trusting God, were NOT idiots. They were good people who chose to trust God for their health, even if He didn't heal them. It takes a lot of courage to face your own mortality and stick with your beliefs. I don't agree with their decisions to not seek medical help, but they weren't idiots for the choices they made. Talk is cheap, and these people walked their talk to the end. I have a lot more respect for them than someone like you who thinks it's ok to call them idiots and their faith ungodly.
Just recently a Pastor died from the results of "Trusting the Lord" with a simple boil on the back of his neck, which became infected, then the infection went into his BRAIN and killed him. Do YOU think that the young men and women of that church and others in the area will not be tempted to EMULATE such a decision thinking that this was the SPIRITUAL decision to make? Do YOU think it is insulting to point out in the hearing of any who God might bring into contact with your voice that this was a FOOLISH, COSTLY ERROR IN JUDGEMENT? (Oh wait, you already kind of anwered that didnt you by reacting to my doing that....)
Bruce Campbell was my former pastor, and he was a man of God who lived and died what he believed. Thatis the kind of example young people need to see; someone who doesn't turn tail and run when their faith is tested. I didn't like the choice he made to not see a doctor, but I respect him for being true to his word. He believed in trusting God for his health and did not back down, even when death was certain.
There are too many women with dead babies, too many kids with dead parents, too many wives with dead husbands too many husbands with dead wives to turn a blind eye to this false doctrine and fail to speak up against it. It is after all as YOU so honestly admit a doctrine that costs LIVES!
Again, this is an issue pertaining to one's faith. You don't get to decide how far one is willing to go with their faith.
My mind goes back to an encounter I had with an evangelist who now pastors a very large and thriving church. He had just finished revival in a church that is given over to the kind of nuttiness that you seem to hold in high regard. I asked him how it went. He told me he will NEVER go back there again, they are guilty of innocent blood. I thought he was kidding, just a joke that didn't go over very well and said "What do you mean?" He then described to me his last night there in the Pastors home when they brought out the photo albums, and had a few pages devoted to a most ghoulish collection of photos. Seems the daughter in law who was "Trusting the Lord" had her baby at home shunning any medical care, (One of your noble choices I am sure...) And there were complications in the birth process. None of the "midwives" (read ladies of the church who "don't know nuthin 'bout birthin' no babies") did not know what to do, the baby died shortly after delivery, and the whole family gathered around the bed with this corpse of a baby all dark grey from oxygen deprivation , on a blanket, all of them with their hands raised in worship as one of them commemorated such a holy and tender moment of their "Trusting the Lord" resulting in the death of this infant with a camera. He told me that he wished he had just a little more gumption and he would have called the authorities on the whole lot of them.
The Knee Jerk reaction here being along the lines of "Do you mean to tell me that because my ____________ ( Grandma, Grandpa, Uncle, Aunt, Mama , Daddy YOU fill in the blanketc.) Failed to have wisdom in any point that they were WRONG??? HOW DARE YOU CALL MY___________________WRONG!!!!!
But the truth remains that WONDERFUL and HOLY People can make stupid errors in judgement and their memories are NOT well served by covering them up. God has given us quite a pattern of pointing out the good AND the bad decisions that people make. Not taking common sense care of your body which is the temple of the spirit of God is WRONG any way you paint it.
A stupid error in judgment is calling others' faith ungodly. Shame on you.
My question to you is how can you for even a split second honestly defend such ignorance? You must have a very skewed sense of the effect decisions made by a member of the body of Christ have on the rest of the body. Then again, you may not have a vision of the Church as a Corporate Entity but rather just a bunch of islands to themselves.
Don't know...don't care.... Very silly to defend LIFE COSTING ERRORS!
I have no problem defending the faith of others, even if my faith doesn't coincide with theirs. I don't have the first problem with someone going to see a doctor. I've been to them myself. That does not entitle me, NOR YOU, to ridicule the faith of those who choose not to see doctors.
lets say this really clearly without a lot of words.
If a person is sick, and can go to a doctor to get medicine that will cure them, and they refuse to go because of their "faith" they are in fact harming the temple of God and that is a sin.
if it is their child that is sick, then not only are they sinning, they need their butt kicked up between their shoulders.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
lets say this really clearly without a lot of words.
If a person is sick, and can go to a doctor to get medicine that will cure them, and they refuse to go because of their "faith" they are in fact harming the temple of God and that is a sin.
if it is their child that is sick, then not only are they sinning, they need their butt kicked up between their shoulders.
Ferd, I have been on both sides of this issue, so I know some things about going the "trusting God" route. It certainly isn't a sin to go this route, and you have absolutely no scripture to back your assertion that it is.
Ferd, I have been on both sides of this issue, so I know some things about going the "trusting God" route. It certainly isn't a sin to go this route, and you have absolutely no scripture to back your assertion that it is.
"trusting" God instead of taking an existing cure is a ESS EYE IN SIN.
when you "trust" God instead of taking an existing remedy, you are hurting the Timple of God and the bible calls that a sin. and there is scripture for it. period.
Sin Rico. ESPECIALLY when its your child that is sick.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
"trusting" God instead of taking an existing cure is a ESS EYE IN SIN.
when you "trust" God instead of taking an existing remedy, you are hurting the Timple of God and the bible calls that a sin. and there is scripture for it. period.
Sin Rico. ESPECIALLY when its your child that is sick.
Ferd, there is no mandate in scripture to go see doctors for treatment. I've heard quite a bit of preaching on this subject, and I know there is at least one example of one of Israel's kings going to a doctor, instead of trusting God, and God was very displeased with him. I would have to look it up to know all the details, because it's been a good while since I heard it.
I completely stand by my position, I do apologize for calling people idiots, however idiotic their choices.
However the example shown in this matter by those you quote was HORRIFIC and MUST be spoken against as there are so many impressionable YOUNG men and women who follow said example. (You even refer to them NEEDING to follow that example! Can you see how DEADLY such a course would be??? I don't think you do.)
There is no glory in taking a foolish position, and no glory in venerating someone BECAUSE of the foolish position they took THAT LED TO THEIR ****DEATH*****.
You loved the man you mentioned, and I am sure he was a great man, I am not speaking against HIM but rather against the grossly destructive example he chose to give those who look to him and his life for leadership.
The course that is taken in this Trusting the Lord for your healing is NO DIFFERENT than someone "TRUSTING THE LORD" for their daily bread and sitting down by the dinner table, refusing to go to the store or to do anything other than PRAY for the Lord to feed them. And WHEN THEY DIE OF STARVATION (as they generally seem to do) and someone speaks up and says THAT WAS A STUPID THING TO DO DON'T EMULATE THIS" please dont kill the messenger because you dont like the message. The message is true no matter how much of a raw nerve it strikes with you.
I remember as a new convert the time a group of young people with cars came home from Youth Convention and they all testified how that On the way home the Holy Ghost moved so mightily in the car, one by one they testified how they talked in tongues all the way home from the meeting, and then the young man who was the driver of the car stood up and testified how that he had gone for Fifteen minutes behind the wheel with his eyes closed, and his hands raised and talked in tongues and DIDN'T TOUCH THE STEERING WHEEL OR EVEN LOOK AT THE ROAD FOR FIFTEEN MINUTES HALLELUJAH, THE LORD DROVE MY CAR THROUGH THE MOUNTAINS AS WE ALL PRAISED GOD!!!!!" The whole church took offf shouting and running the aisles until the pastor stood up and said "That is the dumbest and most irresponsible thing I have heard in years! You young people listen to me! Dont you dare take your hands off the wheel of your car and close your eyes when you are driving expecting the Lord to take over for you and drive your car! DON'T DO IT!" The trust the Lord example of those you reference is no different than that exuberant teenager, and just as deadly.
This is no different sir, there are impressionable men and women out there who need to hear just how foolish this decision is, it is NOT a matter of faith, ( which perhaps is why these stories end so badly most of the time as in the case you referenced.) Leaving widows orphans and vacant pastorships....it is a matter of anything BUT faith. Because FAITH MOVES MOUNTAINS...not bury people under them.
Sorry that you dont like my attitude, but it is high time someone spoke up and gave voice to the things that YOU YOURSELF said you did not agree with! You did not agree with them because our gut reaction told you they are WRONG. For the sake of the young people who will duplicate this grave error in Bible Understanding, get a voice! You dont have to tear down someones memory or good accomplishments, but dont pull the emotional reaction here, the end result of that whole kind of exercise tends to be a widow, and fatherless children. Please dont say my attitude stinks because I have the fortitude to speak up against this false understanding of FAITH.
Ferd, there is no mandate in scripture to go see doctors for treatment. I've heard quite a bit of preaching on this subject, and I know there is at least one example of one of Israel's kings going to a doctor, instead of trusting God, and God was very displeased with him. I would have to look it up to know all the details, because it's been a good while since I heard it.
There is no mandate to breath Rico, but we all agree that refusal to do so is dertimental to ones over all health.... helping another to not breath will land you in the pokey.
I see very litte difference between these two things.
you may chose to equivicate if you wish. It is a sin. period. end of story.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
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