Phariseeism

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

Either you percieve your Pastor as a Man of God, or you consider him just a guy, who'll maybe kind of help you spirtually. If I did not believe my Pastor was a true Man of God. I'd leave. People have different ideas about the word submission. And we all have different levels of tolerance towards what the definition of, or what the role of, culture plays into what and how we go about naming sin. If someone draws the line tighter them me.. God bless them, hopefully they will pray for me. If I draw the line tighter on some issues.. and I see it as salvational.. I need to pray for you. I'm not your Pastor and am not responsible for your soul. Every idle word, even if it is typed.. I'll stand in judgement for.

God Bless.

I agree with the majority of your post, but not the either or premise that the pastor is The Man of God versus, an ordinary Joe who may (or may not) help you spiritually. I place him somewhat in between those two extremes. I do not put him on the same pedestal that Kings of Israel (whom God chose directly) nor as someone who randomly enters your life.
I take (or took, as we are still looking for a church in our new town) what my pastor says very seriously, but also know that the ultimate authority for goes on in our household rests with us. I also expect a pastor to be willing to be questioned -and to admit when he is wrong (I try to follow my own advice also on this count). Lastly, I expect to be able to respect the pastor enough to follow him even when there are minor things that I may agree to disagree on.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

They were in a position of spiritual authority in the OT still. They were hypocrits because they said and did not. Our righteousness is to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees - they said and did not, but Jesus said to observe and do what they bid you. Those who have a right relationship with God on the inside can submit to God-given authority and obey. Those who do not have a right relationship with God seem to have a problem with submitting and/or doing.

In the NT, the Pastor is in a place of spiritual authority and as Hebrews 13 says 3 times in the same chapter, we are to obey those who have the rule over us.

While they were still in the OT, Jesus told them because they sit in Moses' seat, they were to observe and do what they bid them.

I disagree...the only mediator between God and man is the Man Christ Jesus. WE don't need a Pastor or Pope to go to God about our lives. The only thing a Preacher is called to do is just that...preach the word, and let the word [which is God BTW] complete the work.

Blessings, Rhoni

[theoldpaths]

Adding to the Word is just as wrong as taking away from it.

Brother are you not aware that Jesus in Matt 18 gave his future leadership the authority to bind/loose things on earth and that Jesus said that he would bind/loose them in heaven?

In Acts 15-16, there is a very practical example of this; I highy recommend that you read it.

Jesus knew that things would come up in which his own word would not cover it - hence the necessity of his future leadership needing to bind/loose some things that were not covered by His word.

If His word covers everything, then why did Jesus give his future leadership the ability bind/loose some things in the future that he said in response to them - men - bind/loosing some things on earth, that he, in turn, would bind/loose them in heaven?

Make ya think doesn't it?

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

Brother are you not aware that Jesus in Matt 18 gave his future leadership the authority to bind/loose things on earth and that Jesus said that he would bind/loose them in heaven?

In Acts 15-16, there is a very practical example of this; I highy recommend that you read it.

Jesus knew that things would come up in which his own word would not cover it - hence the necessity of his future leadership needing to bind/loose some things that were not covered by His word.

If His word covers everything, then why did Jesus give his future leadership the ability bind/loose some things in the future that he said in response to them - men - bind/loosing some things on earth, that he, in turn, would bind/loose them in heaven?

Make ya think doesn't it?

One of the points already mentioned was, how do you determine authority of 'future leadership'? Is anyone who graduates from ABI suddenly endowed with the official voice of God? Can someone proclaim themselves to be "The Pastor!" and suddenly be blameless to their congregation -whether it be 1 or 1 thousand?
I do not see where leadership today is proclaimed in the same way it was in the OT, or by Jesus Himself. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the "Church" is represented by individuals who are all seeking their own salvation?

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

Either you percieve your Pastor as a Man of God, or you consider him just a guy, who'll maybe kind of help you spirtually. If I did not believe my Pastor was a true Man of God. I'd leave. People have different ideas about the word submission. And we all have different levels of tolerance towards what the definition of, or what the role of, culture plays into what and how we go about naming sin. If someone draws the line tighter them me.. God bless them, hopefully they will pray for me. If I draw the line tighter on some issues.. and I see it as salvational.. I need to pray for you. I'm not your Pastor and am not responsible for your soul. Every idle word, even if it is typed.. I'll stand in judgement for.

God Bless.

Amen! A Pastor is either a man of God or he is not. Just because someone had completed bible college doesn't mean they are called to preach or pastor.

Incidentally, a UPC district super. in Apostolic Man admitted to granting licensees to people that he later realized he should not have granted them licenses. Imagine a man being granted a license and thinking he's called to preach/pastor when in fact he is not.

[HappyTown]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

Pelathais,

Thank you for what you have posted. Staying with an old path, just because it is old, and the way it has always been done is in itself hypocrisy.

The Roman Catholic church could not accept the simplicity fo the gospel message that is why in 325 A.D. they adopted Catholicism as the governmental religion, and the mode of baptism as sprinkling in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Then came all the rules, regulations, and 'works' based legalism to make men feel that they could earn salvation. It didn't work for the Jews under the Mosaic Law, didn't work for the Roman Catholic Church, and has not bode well for many Apostolic organizations, such as, The UPCI.

The thread locked on my wanting to be a missionary is an example of legalism gone wrong. Those posing to be so spiritual and holy are expecting others to measure up to their standard of 'holiness', and outward show of what a "burden for souls" looks like. God is God and can use whomever, and whatever He will - despite some of you folks.

While many old-timers, or Conservatives want accolades for their righteous, or self-righteous words, their standard of dress, and their sticking to the "old landmarks", they are like the Pharisees whited sepulchres full of dead men's bones.

Take this thread...of how many posts now against a young man struggling to find himself who hasn't even posted since 7/31/2008. Let's cripple him, chastize him, and lay him face down in the mud and walk on him for having questions that many of us have had through the years.

The thing is...God didn't need your help in speaking the worlds into existence; you weren't there when he made everything that is made from darkness, and void, so what makes you think He needs you to correct, reprove, condemn, and crucify others on this forum. I am sure you feel "Holy Indignation", and justified in slaughtering reputations of people God has greatly used through the years because they stopped being like you are.

The message of God is simple: repent, be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and be filled with his spirit...being conformed to HIS likeness, not each other's likeness.

Preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified and stop preaching condemnation, and judgement. That was never the message of Christ. From Genesis to Revelation it has always been about forgiveness, restoration, and reconcilliation. If Jesus didn't condemn the woman at the well, the woman caught in adultery, the tax collectors, and even Saul of Tarsus, but forgave, gave them a new name, and a new destiny...then how do you come off judging others and condemning them?

Those of you who have condemned Thad for all the gossip are so guilty of it yourself. At least he owns up to his interest in all these things while you deny that you are what you condemn him to be.

I think I've said enough tonight.
__________________
Quote:
Surely for a Christian, stooping to someone else's level should only be done to give them a hand up and not to push their head down in the mud! Rev DWW

AMEN!

I think I've said enough tonight.

I think you said it RIGHT!


P.S Love your new pic...

[theoldpaths]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

One of the points already mentioned was, how do you determine authority of 'future leadership'? Is anyone who graduates from ABI suddenly endowed with the official voice of God? Can someone proclaim themselves to be "The Pastor!" and suddenly be blameless to their congregation -whether it be 1 or 1 thousand?
I do not see where leadership today is proclaimed in the same way it was in the OT, or by Jesus Himself. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the "Church" is represented by individuals who are all seeking their own salvation?

Brother it sounds like to me that you've never been under a Pastor that you knew was a man of God, called of God to Pastor that church, and annointed of God to be in a place of authority. But I could be wrong - it just sounds that way.

IMHO it is a sad thing to not know whether your pastor is a man of God, called of God to Pastor your church, and annointed of God to be in a place of authority over your life. One would always be in doubt and unsure about trusting the man above you.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by theoldpaths

However nowadays, some are reluctant to observe and do what a Pastor will bid to observe and do.

"A word" from the Lord will NEVER supersede "The WORD" of the Lord-- be it from a Prophet or Pastor.

Spiritually speaking, if what he bids me to do does not line up CLEARLY with scripture, then I need to find a new Pastor who will not add or subtract from "The WORD".

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

Either you percieve your Pastor as a Man of God, or you consider him just a guy, who'll maybe kind of help you spirtually. If I did not believe my Pastor was a true Man of God. I'd leave. People have different ideas about the word submission. And we all have different levels of tolerance towards what the definition of, or what the role of, culture plays into what and how we go about naming sin. If someone draws the line tighter them me.. God bless them, hopefully they will pray for me. If I draw the line tighter on some issues.. and I see it as salvational.. I need to pray for you. I'm not your Pastor and am not responsible for your soul. Every idle word, even if it is typed.. I'll stand in judgement for.

God Bless.

I agree with the bolded-- but that is why it is so important to find a Pastor that you can trust to NOT ADD to the Bible.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Carpenter

No. I absolutely refuse to accept your premise that there are only two categories where a pastor fits, either a Man of God or just a guy that might help you spiritually. If these are the only choices, then no wonder folks are struggling, and no wonder folks get their underwear in a bunch when they evaluate what the pastor says or does is applicable to their spiritual state.

A pastor should be a mentor. I am not sure I really care if he loves me personally or individually because, to be honest, I am not sure what that should look like. At a minimum there should be reciprocal trust.

The Man of God can be a mentor-- in fact, in order for him to mentor a soul, that soul must be able to submit. That soul should see in his/her Pastor a love that makes submission possible.