How many churches are willing to "pay out" for their help?

[Rhoni]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just a Shepherd
Well, I work a full time job, and I'm the pastor. You're saying that the church isn't large enough to afford a pastor? I totally disagree with your sentements here. In fact, that attitude is why it is so hard to get men into home missions. Because they would rather be "on staff" somewhere. All over the UPC there are churches with 10-15 licensed ministers on staff yet we can't find anyone to start a new work in an area 20 miles north of me that has 30,125 people!

I was simply asking because I am tired of being asked if we have any "positions open" by people who want a cushy "ministry" job. I have plenty of positions open and none of them pay - we all work around here.

Shepherd,

I think you have misunderstood something here...

#1. I worked in home missions and dug out a church from nothing. My husband and I both worked to pay the church bills...so no, I am not saying anything about Pastors whatsoever.

#2. I am saying that assemblies that take in more tithes above an equitable wage for the Pastor should utilize their monies to expand their ministries regarding other areas, like music and outreach.

#3. I feel it cruel and unjust to hire someone to work in your church and pay them poverty wages when it is in your power to pay them better.

I hope this clears things up for you.

Blessings, Rhonda

P.S. There are very few "cushy" jobs in ministry. Since I have been in ministry most of my life I can attest to that fact. No matter how much you work...the job is never done and the pay not quite enough for all the labor involved...but that isn't why we do it , is it?

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I think it's just fine to ask folks to volunteer their gifts and talents to the church, especially if the church is small and can't afford to pay fulltime employees. However, the church can't expect compliance or fulltime effort....

Why can't they expect compliance? Have we forgotten that the Church is Christ's body and that we're all just body parts fulfilling our function?

I know quite a few pastors who work outside the home, to supplement small incomes from small churches. Would the same logic apply? If a church can't afford to pay a pastor, say, $50,000.00/year, are they too small for a pastor????

I know of pastors who work outside the home and get paid absolutely nothing from the church.

Volunteers are necessary, unless the church is very large with equally large financial resources. Volunteers are needed for teaching classes, greeting visitors, taking up offerings, singing in the choir, playing the organ on Sunday mornings, etc. etc. etc. There's no reason to pay for those positions. Unless the position is a fulltime position, in lieu of other employment (at the request of the church), then I see no reason for a salary, or at least not a large one.

Where does the Bible say this?

I think folks should give of their time and talents to the church the same way the give their financial support. The way I see it, God blessed me with some gifts, I make money off those talents by teaching music lessons, etc., and I return His favor by giving back to Him for free. The only way I would accept a salary from our church is if they asked me to take on a position that would significantly take away from my ability to take care of other priorities, and I would need it in order to fill the position.

Give without expecting anything in return.

Salaries are fair, but they aren't necessary all the time, nor should they be demanded or expected, nor should a person withhold their gifts and talents from the church merely to gain a salary.

I think that except for the pastor (and certain functions outside the church such as a bookkeeper), paying people to do things in the church turns the church into a business and not the body of Christ.

I do agree that some churches don't treat their members and volunteers very well, and those who don't, and especially those who have the capacity to do so and don't should be ashamed of themselves.

Even the ones that pay people don't always treat them well.

[CC1]

This discussion is a good one in the context of old time Pentecost. My personal experience having attended UPC or exUPC churches all of my life is that this has been a difficult area.

As OP churches grew from the tiny church across the railroad tracks with just a few members (most of them female) to churches of 250+ approaches and thinking had to change as well.

For a small church 100% of the tithe many times is not enough for a pastor to live off of and he must work full or part time.

In many instances as churches grew the tradition of the pastor keeping 100% of the tithe remained. That left it entirely to the integrity of the pastor as to how much of that tithe was used personally and how much was used to support the church and additional staff.

As churches grew and revenue increased many pastors did not acknowledge that the increased number of saints meant additional staff was neccessary to shepherd the flock properly. However over time that seems to have changed and many churches use their resources to have full time associate pastors, youth pastors, pastoral care pastors, etc on staff.

I believe most major church consultants have concluded that a church should have a pastor for every 300 members at an absolute minimum. This is beyond the normal Pastor, associate Pastor, Youth Pastor, etc.

I believe most of the horror stories we have heard about pastors "living the high life" etc have stemmed from the 100% tithe tradition when Pentecostal churches were small and the lack of a man's integrity to understand that as churches got bigger only a portion of that tithe should be used to sustain the pastor's lifestyle.

I also think that moderation is a key in these things and that moderation is a moving target depending on the resources available.

For a small church perhaps just providing housing or a part time salary is moderation when it comes to a youth or associate pastor. For a larger church with more resources moderation might be $36-60,000 year for an associate or youth pastor.

While the church has no bibilical requirement to provide a certain wage to staff members I think as a matter of principle and integrity if a church can afford it they should try to provide staff with an income similar to what they would find in the secular marketplace.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by CC1

This discussion is a good one in the context of old time Pentecost. My personal experience having attended UPC or exUPC churches all of my life is that this has been a difficult area.

As OP churches grew from the tiny church across the railroad tracks with just a few members (most of them female) to churches of 250+ approaches and thinking had to change as well.

For a small church 100% of the tithe many times is not enough for a pastor to live off of and he must work full or part time.

In many instances as churches grew the tradition of the pastor keeping 100% of the tithe remained. That left it entirely to the integrity of the pastor as to how much of that tithe was used personally and how much was used to support the church and additional staff.

As churches grew and revenue increased many pastors did not acknowledge that the increased number of saints meant additional staff was neccessary to shepherd the flock properly. However over time that seems to have changed and many churches use their resources to have full time associate pastors, youth pastors, pastoral care pastors, etc on staff.

I believe most major church consultants have concluded that a church should have a pastor for every 300 members at an absolute minimum. This is beyond the normal Pastor, associate Pastor, Youth Pastor, etc.

I believe most of the horror stories we have heard about pastors "living the high life" etc have stemmed from the 100% tithe tradition when Pentecostal churches were small and the lack of a man's integrity to understand that as churches got bigger only a portion of that tithe should be used to sustain the pastor's lifestyle.

I also think that moderation is a key in these things and that moderation is a moving target depending on the resources available.

For a small church perhaps just providing housing or a part time salary is moderation when it comes to a youth or associate pastor. For a larger church with more resources moderation might be $36-60,000 year for an associate or youth pastor.

While the church has no bibilical requirement to provide a certain wage to staff members I think as a matter of principle and integrity if a church can afford it they should try to provide staff with an income similar to what they would find in the secular marketplace.

Looks like you covered it exactly as I believe it it to be in the past and what it should currently look like! Good job!

Blessings, Rhoni