We Must Rethink A Few Things

[Apprehended]

It is now time that we must rethink a few things...yes a few things that we have held to be tenants of, if not faith, at least godly obedience and ethics. I am thinking that it is no longer acceptable for the doctrine of holiness to be so rigid on what one does or does not wear or what media to broadcast the gospel, if it is broadcast at all, yet so easily, without one thought, cast aside what was formerly considered to be godly authority. Holiness cannot be found outside godly authority. What is not under subjection to godly authority CANNOT be holy. It is nothing but rebellion.

That great preacher of Holiness and sanctification, John Wesley eventually separated from the Church of England. But not by his own choosing. He had brought such a stir, such a move of God, such an awakening everwhere he went preaching, that it became unbearable to the old system that he was in. His beloved church could no longer endure the power of the Word of God that he preached among them. To make a long story short, which reading would be greatly beneficial to the Tulsaites, John Wesley was driven out against his own choice.

What a godly example did this hearld of righteousness present for today's Tulsa 6. Yes, there is a right way to do something and there IS A WRONG way to do the same thing. Political slight of hand is NOT the right way. Iniquity will not be tolerated in the body of Christ nor will it be presented in heaven as acceptable. Lawlessness is the way of the Antichrist.

So, dear hearts...

We are now back to square one. We must now rethink a few things in this time of reflection. Just what constitute divine authority? Just what constitute submission? Just what constitute submission or rebellion to THAT divine authority?

These Tulsa six, by their actions are plainly stating that there is no divine authority under which they yoked themselves, lo, these many years. Or if they will clearly state that it was indeed divine authoity, how is it that they now can be in rebellion? Do they now consider that by passing res. 4 that such action voided out any perceived divine authority? How can any of them preach submission to proper authority when themselves are in rebellion, if indeed they were heretofore under subjection to divine authority?

From my following this discussion on these various threads, it does not seem to me that anyone hardly is even thinking this thing through, nor have they really considered the great, great transgression against the body of Christ that is being inflicted by these SIX.... (It just occured to me...SIX is the number of MAN. Imagine that! Coincidental? Well, maybe). In short, can we endure the preaching of submission by those who do not submit? Will we practice humility and brotherly love as shown forth by their actions? Can there be true holiness apart from such humility, love and submission?

At any rate, many souls are going to be devastated from the foolishness of their action...but for what cause? Purity of holiness? No. There was no mandate that they should compromise that purity as they perceived it. In my humble but sometimes inflamatory opinion, these men are now in condemnation even if they do not realize what a horrible thing that they have done.

To have done things righteously, they should never depart but rather bring a stir within their ranks with the power of their preaching until they were forcefully expelled as was the great preacher of righteousness, John Wesley.

[Pressing-On]

Not wanting to criticize any of the actions. Just posting to say, "Good thoughts"!!!

Just what constitute divine authority? Just what constitute submission? Just what constitute submission or rebellion to THAT divine authority?

It will be interesting to read the weighing in...

[Joseph Miller]

If you think I have always agreed with my pastor on every little issue you are mistaken. I am hard headed. I have had a hard time learning about submission. I didn't want to submit. Because I wouldn't submit I didn't walk in the place of spiritual authority that I could have. As long as I bucked against the authority of the one above me I was very limited in my own authority.

I have to say that I agree with the original post on this thread. When you don't agree with leadership it don't mean that we run out and do our own thing. I tried that and for years it hurt my ministry and in some areas I may never recover. I know I can with the help of God. He is working on me. He is changing me. For a little over a year now I have been back under authority. I have submitted to him. He is not my preacher, he is my pastor. There is a difference. I may never agree with everything he says, does or asks of me but I have made a commitment to God that as long as there is no compromise of doctrine I will remain and submit.

I may be to open in my post but I have walked the road of "I will do my own thing". It is a road that only leads to hurt and disappointment. I am glad that when I realized that it wasn't working, it would never work that I had an open door to return to where I should have never left.

I love my pastor and I support him. He is more than just a pastor he is like my father. I am glad that when I went to him and asked him to forgive me of the way I left and the things I said and did that he forgave. It is now like I never left. I won't leave now until God moves me somewhere else, but he will confirm to me that it is God. If my authority don't feel like it is the move to make then I will remain where I am and keep a right spirit.

Just for the record, my opinion on the "whys" of Tusla is shared with by my pastor.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Joseph Miller

If you think I have always agreed with my pastor on every little issue you are mistaken. I am hard headed. I have had a hard time learning about submission. I didn't want to submit. Because I wouldn't submit I didn't walk in the place of spiritual authority that I could have. As long as I bucked against the authority of the one above me I was very limited in my own authority.

I have to say that I agree with the original post on this thread. When you don't agree with leadership it don't mean that we run out and do our own thing. I tried that and for years it hurt my ministry and in some areas I may never recover. I know I can with the help of God. He is working on me. He is changing me. For a little over a year now I have been back under authority. I have submitted to him. He is not my preacher, he is my pastor. There is a difference. I may never agree with everything he says, does or asks of me but I have made a commitment to God that as long as there is no compromise of doctrine I will remain and submit.

I may be to open in my post but I have walked the road of "I will do my own thing". It is a road that only leads to hurt and disappointment. I am glad that when I realized that it wasn't working, it would never work that I had an open door to return to where I should have never left.

I love my pastor and I support him. He is more than just a pastor he is like my father. I am glad that when I went to him and asked him to forgive me of the way I left and the things I said and did that he forgave. It is now like I never left. I won't leave now until God moves me somewhere else, but he will confirm to me that it is God. If my authority don't feel like it is the move to make then I will remain where I am and keep a right spirit.

Just for the record, my opinion on the "whys" of Tusla is shared with by my pastor.

A beautiful post.

I appreciate the spirit of humility shown here.

I too have walked the road of rebellion. But, even though there seemed to be an anointing on me, it was not that at all. It was only inspiration but little authority. When one is properly aligned with heavenly authority under subjection, submitting as unto the Lord, whether that above you is right or wrong, it matters not because you are submitted AS UNTO THE LORD.

I've learned that everything that RIPS AND SNORTS is neither anointed or has authority. There are a cow pen full of those that can huff and puff and seemingly blow your house down but there is nothing in it. Clouds but no rain. Well but no water. Wandering stars are as beautiful as they may be but they are out of control in the heavenlies.

Nigh unto blasphemy are the desensitized to holy order. That order may not be exactly what God has in mind in every case, but God will try your spirit. I don't agree with everything that the UPCI does, nor do I agree with their form of Government, but I am under strict submission to my Pastor, first of all. If he is wrong, God will deal with him. Meanwhile, I submit to him as unto the Lord. I also give my tithes to him as unto the Lord.

MY GOD! I FEEL THE HOLY GHOST! A beautiful witness of the Spirit that just bore within me.

IF this gang of six can be so flippant about holy things and holy order, how can they go to the pulpit, huffing and puffing about submission, obedience, brotherly love and true holiness...when they are themselves out of order...read "lawless?" Someone with proper authority needs to tell them to sit down and shut up until they learn the meaning of true humility. But, if someone were to do that, you would THEN really see WHAT MANNER OF SPIRIT they are of.

I'm telling you, everything that looks sooooooo holy can be anything BUT!

[NW Pastor]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

It is now time that we must rethink a few things...yes a few things that we have held to be tenants of, if not faith, at least godly obedience and ethics. I am thinking that it is no longer acceptable for the doctrine of holiness to be so rigid on what one does or does not wear or what media to broadcast the gospel, if it is broadcast at all, yet so easily, without one thought, cast aside what was formerly considered to be godly authority. Holiness cannot be found outside godly authority. What is not under subjection to godly authority CANNOT be holy. It is nothing but rebellion.

That great preacher of Holiness and sanctification, John Wesley eventually separated from the Church of England. But not by his own choosing. He had brought such a stir, such a move of God, such an awakening everwhere he went preaching, that it became unbearable to the old system that he was in. His beloved church could no longer endure the power of the Word of God that he preached among them. To make a long story short, which reading would be greatly beneficial to the Tulsaites, John Wesley was driven out against his own choice.

What a godly example did this hearld of righteousness present for today's Tulsa 6. Yes, there is a right way to do something and there IS A WRONG way to do the same thing. Political slight of hand is NOT the right way. Iniquity will not be tolerated in the body of Christ nor will it be presented in heaven as acceptable. Lawlessness is the way of the Antichrist.

So, dear hearts...

We are now back to square one. We must now rethink a few things in this time of reflection. Just what constitute divine authority? Just what constitute submission? Just what constitute submission or rebellion to THAT divine authority?

These Tulsa six, by their actions are plainly stating that there is no divine authority under which they yoked themselves, lo, these many years. Or if they will clearly state that it was indeed divine authoity, how is it that they now can be in rebellion? Do they now consider that by passing res. 4 that such action voided out any perceived divine authority? How can any of them preach submission to proper authority when themselves are in rebellion, if indeed they were heretofore under subjection to divine authority?

From my following this discussion on these various threads, it does not seem to me that anyone hardly is even thinking this thing through, nor have they really considered the great, great transgression against the body of Christ that is being inflicted by these SIX.... (It just occured to me...SIX is the number of MAN. Imagine that! Coincidental? Well, maybe). In short, can we endure the preaching of submission by those who do not submit? Will we practice humility and brotherly love as shown forth by their actions? Can there be true holiness apart from such humility, love and submission?

At any rate, many souls are going to be devastated from the foolishness of their action...but for what cause? Purity of holiness? No. There was no mandate that they should compromise that purity as they perceived it. In my humble but sometimes inflamatory opinion, these men are now in condemnation even if they do not realize what a horrible thing that they have done.

To have done things righteously, they should never depart but rather bring a stir within their ranks with the power of their preaching until they were forcefully expelled as was the great preacher of righteousness, John Wesley.

Martin Luther also had some VERY legitimate beefs with the Catholic church. He posted them on his door as Thesises for discussion. He did not leave, he was issued a papal bull (told to shutup), which he burned, then was excommunicated.

The church threw him out because they could not tolerate the light he was shining on their sinful activities.

Did the UPC tolerate the conservative questioning of methods and theologies? To my knowledge there was never any interferance. We have always been free to nail our 95 Thesises to the doors of our churches without fear of dismissal as long as our spirits are right, and we don't try to rip the organization apart.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by NW Pastor

Martin Luther also had some VERY legitimate beefs with the Catholic church. He posted them on his door as Thesises for discussion. He did not leave, he was issued a papal bull (told to shutup), which he burned, then was excommunicated.

The church threw him out because they could not tolerate the light he was shining on their sinful activities.

Did the UPC tolerate the conservative questioning of methods and theologies? To my knowledge there was never any interferance. We have always been free to nail our 95 Thesises to the doors of our churches without fear of dismissal as long as our spirits are right, and we don't try to rip the organization apart.

Exactly...the RCC had doctrines that were binding on all members that ML could not agree with. He spoke out against them, but he did not leave.

In the UPC case there was on doctrine (teaching). Our doctrine stands intact. This was a church organizational code which was infact NOT binding on anyone.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

It is now time that we must rethink a few things...yes a few things that we have held to be tenants of, if not faith, at least godly obedience and ethics. I am thinking that it is no longer acceptable for the doctrine of holiness to be so rigid on what one does or does not wear or what media to broadcast the gospel, if it is broadcast at all, yet so easily, without one thought, cast aside what was formerly considered to be godly authority. Holiness cannot be found outside godly authority. What is not under subjection to godly authority CANNOT be holy. It is nothing but rebellion.

That great preacher of Holiness and sanctification, John Wesley eventually separated from the Church of England. But not by his own choosing. He had brought such a stir, such a move of God, such an awakening everwhere he went preaching, that it became unbearable to the old system that he was in. His beloved church could no longer endure the power of the Word of God that he preached among them. To make a long story short, which reading would be greatly beneficial to the Tulsaites, John Wesley was driven out against his own choice.

What a godly example did this hearld of righteousness present for today's Tulsa 6. Yes, there is a right way to do something and there IS A WRONG way to do the same thing. Political slight of hand is NOT the right way. Iniquity will not be tolerated in the body of Christ nor will it be presented in heaven as acceptable. Lawlessness is the way of the Antichrist.

So, dear hearts...

We are now back to square one. We must now rethink a few things in this time of reflection. Just what constitute divine authority? Just what constitute submission? Just what constitute submission or rebellion to THAT divine authority?

These Tulsa six, by their actions are plainly stating that there is no divine authority under which they yoked themselves, lo, these many years. Or if they will clearly state that it was indeed divine authoity, how is it that they now can be in rebellion? Do they now consider that by passing res. 4 that such action voided out any perceived divine authority? How can any of them preach submission to proper authority when themselves are in rebellion, if indeed they were heretofore under subjection to divine authority?

From my following this discussion on these various threads, it does not seem to me that anyone hardly is even thinking this thing through, nor have they really considered the great, great transgression against the body of Christ that is being inflicted by these SIX.... (It just occured to me...SIX is the number of MAN. Imagine that! Coincidental? Well, maybe). In short, can we endure the preaching of submission by those who do not submit? Will we practice humility and brotherly love as shown forth by their actions? Can there be true holiness apart from such humility, love and submission?

At any rate, many souls are going to be devastated from the foolishness of their action...but for what cause? Purity of holiness? No. There was no mandate that they should compromise that purity as they perceived it. In my humble but sometimes inflamatory opinion, these men are now in condemnation even if they do not realize what a horrible thing that they have done.

To have done things righteously, they should never depart but rather bring a stir within their ranks with the power of their preaching until they were forcefully expelled as was the great preacher of righteousness, John Wesley.

In essence I think I agree. But when does one leave?

[embonpoint]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

It is now time that we must rethink a few things...yes a few things that we have held to be tenants of, if not faith, at least godly obedience and ethics. I am thinking that it is no longer acceptable for the doctrine of holiness to be so rigid on what one does or does not wear or what media to broadcast the gospel, if it is broadcast at all, yet so easily, without one thought, cast aside what was formerly considered to be godly authority. Holiness cannot be found outside godly authority. What is not under subjection to godly authority CANNOT be holy. It is nothing but rebellion.

That great preacher of Holiness and sanctification, John Wesley eventually separated from the Church of England. But not by his own choosing. He had brought such a stir, such a move of God, such an awakening everwhere he went preaching, that it became unbearable to the old system that he was in. His beloved church could no longer endure the power of the Word of God that he preached among them. To make a long story short, which reading would be greatly beneficial to the Tulsaites, John Wesley was driven out against his own choice.

What a godly example did this hearld of righteousness present for today's Tulsa 6. Yes, there is a right way to do something and there IS A WRONG way to do the same thing. Political slight of hand is NOT the right way. Iniquity will not be tolerated in the body of Christ nor will it be presented in heaven as acceptable. Lawlessness is the way of the Antichrist.

So, dear hearts...

We are now back to square one. We must now rethink a few things in this time of reflection. Just what constitute divine authority? Just what constitute submission? Just what constitute submission or rebellion to THAT divine authority?

These Tulsa six, by their actions are plainly stating that there is no divine authority under which they yoked themselves, lo, these many years. Or if they will clearly state that it was indeed divine authoity, how is it that they now can be in rebellion? Do they now consider that by passing res. 4 that such action voided out any perceived divine authority? How can any of them preach submission to proper authority when themselves are in rebellion, if indeed they were heretofore under subjection to divine authority?

From my following this discussion on these various threads, it does not seem to me that anyone hardly is even thinking this thing through, nor have they really considered the great, great transgression against the body of Christ that is being inflicted by these SIX.... (It just occured to me...SIX is the number of MAN. Imagine that! Coincidental? Well, maybe). In short, can we endure the preaching of submission by those who do not submit? Will we practice humility and brotherly love as shown forth by their actions? Can there be true holiness apart from such humility, love and submission?

At any rate, many souls are going to be devastated from the foolishness of their action...but for what cause? Purity of holiness? No. There was no mandate that they should compromise that purity as they perceived it. In my humble but sometimes inflamatory opinion, these men are now in condemnation even if they do not realize what a horrible thing that they have done.

To have done things righteously, they should never depart but rather bring a stir within their ranks with the power of their preaching until they were forcefully expelled as was the great preacher of righteousness, John Wesley.

You make several errant assumptions

1. That the UPC is a hierarchal organization as the RCC was. Does this make the GS on a par with the Pope. Does he speak Ex Cathedra?

2. That the UPC hierarchy represents divine authority.

3. That if men do not submit to an organization that they are not submitted to spiritual authority.

4. That John Wesley and Martin Luther are the examples Apostolic ministries should follow.

Oh well..... Why am I not surprised?

[Joseph Miller]

Originally Posted by embonpoint

3. That if men do not submit to an organization that they are not submitted to spiritual authority.

I believe that when you join an organization you are submitting yourself to the spiritual authority of those in that organization which are above you such as presbyter, DS and GS.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Joseph Miller

I believe that when you join an organization you are submitting yourself to the spiritual authority of those in that organization which are above you such as presbyter, DS and GS.

Some are of the opinion that those men are not your spiritual authority.