Resolution 4: The Trojan Horse?

Originally Posted by chseeads

Even in Paul's day the church had issues of opinions.... Paul and Barnabas split over John Mark. Paul rebuked Peter for his hypocritical actions. It's nothing new.

yes and no...

and the best example of this is the split between the Jerusalem church (led by James) and the Antioch Church (led by Paul)...

See, even with those "splits" and arguments, they weren't really splits... They still fellowshipped, they still considered eachother brothers, etc... They just agreed to disagree on the minor things they disagreed on and moved forward spreading the gospel together...

[Brett Prince]

Originally Posted by redeemedcynic84

yes and no...

and the best example of this is the split between the Jerusalem church (led by James) and the Antioch Church (led by Paul)...

See, even with those "splits" and arguments, they weren't really splits... They still fellowshipped, they still considered eachother brothers, etc... They just agreed to disagree on the minor things they disagreed on and moved forward spreading the gospel together...

redeemed, where did you conjure up this split between Jerusalem and Antioch?

It seems to me that Paul led a delegation to decide a key issue to the church at Jerusalem, and took back their answer to brethren from whom the question came.

I see no split. Never heard of one. Didn't learn about it from a UPC bible college, or the trinitarian seminary that I now attend. Never heard it preached by a UPC preacher, or Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, TD Jakes, or any one of a number of well-known teachers and preachers that are non-Apostolic, or quasi-Apostolic, for that matter.

Originally Posted by Brett Prince

redeemed, where did you conjure up this split between Jerusalem and Antioch?

It seems to me that Paul led a delegation to decide a key issue to the church at Jerusalem, and took back their answer to brethren from whom the question came.

I see no split. Never heard of one. Didn't learn about it from a UPC bible college, or the trinitarian seminary that I now attend. Never heard it preached by a UPC preacher, or Chuck Swindoll, Charles Stanley, TD Jakes, or any one of a number of well-known teachers and preachers that are non-Apostolic, or quasi-Apostolic, for that matter.

read the next paragraph... The split that happened at the Council of Jerusalem isn't like modern splits... All that happened was PAul and the Antioch church were allowed to preach that the law didn't have to be followed by the new Gentile converts while James and the Jerusalem church kept on preaching that the Law must be followed by all new converts and converting any gentile believers both to Judaism and Christianity...

Involved in this is the money Paul was going to collect (and possibly was refused by James and the Jerusalem church) and the riot in Jerusalem when Paul came to give them that money and they had Paul finish a Nazarite vow with some brethren... Plus, possibly, the continual missionary work of people from someplace (probably Jerusalem) telling Paul's converts in Corinth & Galatia (at minimum) that they must follow the law (see the 2 letters to the Corinth church & the letter to the Galatian church)...

it wasn't a split in the modern sense, but they were definately not preaching the same exact thing after the council of Jerusalem...

[SDG]

bump for the weekend crowd.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Some believe that resolution 4, amended or not, is the Trojan horse that will set off a chain reaction that will result in the ultimate end of the UPC as a "holiness" organization.

I personally don't think that if it does pass ... that the organization ,as we know it , would totally abandon dress standards immediately ... or even in the next 20 years. This doesn't mean that there won't be progressive changes, however. I foresee a movement that will become more principle-based rather than rule-based.

A friend recently told me that tradition, after God, is the most powerful force in the church. There is too much tradition standing in the way for such a drastic change. I do think, however, there would be a move for increased autonomy given to local churches in regards to dress standards ... even more than today.

What say ye?

Daniel, in the words of my avatar the Worlds Bishopm Bishop T.D. Jakes, "the traditions of men make the will of God of no affect." Amen to that. Dan you know I hate traditions of men, not the men of traditions as Bro Jones would have everyone think about me. The fact is that I feel that some traditions have a positive affect. Look at men like Anthony Mangun. I have heard him say from the pulpit at BOTT the there are traditions that his parents follow that he does not want to mess with because it has brought an anointing to his and his families lives. I agree. But honestly I believe that traditions can strangle and kill the will of God in ones life. It is all about balance. We can not afford to go to far right or left.

Traditions?! Amazing that we are carping about a tv when in the early 20th century, preachers preached against radios as instruments of Satan! Now, it is acceptable in our cars, homes and MP3 players, EGADS!!! When is the madness going to stop!!! I believe we are missing the whole point, we're more concerned about a tv then we are seeing someone come to Jesus!!

[tv1a]

There is a difference between being known for holiness and known for a dress code... the upci wants to be known as for it's dress codes while generations are being lost.

[tv1a]

Anthony Mangun's annointing did not come from a dress code. His mamma and pappa taught that boy how to pray. If there is any tradition I would love to pass to my kids, it is time spent with Christ in prayer.

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Daniel, in the words of my avatar the Worlds Bishopm Bishop T.D. Jakes, "the traditions of men make the will of God of no affect." Amen to that. Dan you know I hate traditions of men, not the men of traditions as Bro Jones would have everyone think about me. The fact is that I feel that some traditions have a positive affect. Look at men like Anthony Mangun. I have heard him say from the pulpit at BOTT the there are traditions that his parents follow that he does not want to mess with because it has brought an anointing to his and his families lives. I agree. But honestly I believe that traditions can strangle and kill the will of God in ones life. It is all about balance. We can not afford to go to far right or left.

Trojan Horse?

Check.

Fear and Control?

The only fear that we should maintain has long since been discarded by too many.

Once it is outta control, folks will wish there was some.

Thus swings the pendulum...


This might turn out to be a very interesting lesson for those of minimum scruples.