Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 09-08-2007, 08:23 PM
SDG SDG is offline
Guest


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: H-Town, Texas
Posts: 18,009
Light does Thomas Weisser offer one example that parallels today's OP PAJC theology? Please share it.
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 09-08-2007, 08:25 PM
seguidordejesus's Avatar
seguidordejesus seguidordejesus is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: South Central Texas
Posts: 2,801
I'd be interested, too. TW came close to being the pastor of a church I used to attend. Knowledgeable guy.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 09-08-2007, 08:28 PM
Adino's Avatar
Adino Adino is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,099
The late church historian, Rev. Marvin M. Arnold who wrote, "The Origin and Spread of Man," "History of the Christian Church," "Nicaea and the Nicene Council of AD 325," "Pentecost (Acts 2:38 in America) Before Azusa," "Apostolic History Outline" and "The Bible Trinity and Matthew 28:19" could not find a single witness to the current water/spirit interpretation. If someone else has succeeded where he failed, please show us the historical evidence. Thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 09-08-2007, 08:58 PM
pelathais's Avatar
pelathais pelathais is offline
Accepts all friends requests


 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light View Post
I use the bible as proof.

[Mat 16:18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

If there was a time after the day of Pentecost that the truth was void on this earth, then hell prevailed.
Read Rev. Thomas Weissers books.
Light, since there is no evidence to support the idea that OP existed throughout history, the burden of proof is on you to make your case. And believe me, most people here would be inclined to accept any evidence presented.

It's just that most have bought into your understanding of Matthew 16:18 at one time or another, thinking that the evidence would be forthcoming. Needless to say, we were badly disappointed. Of course there are some who still hold on to the hope that the evidence will suddenly turn up. A careful investigation of history however, reveals that this hope is only imagined. And that, even though they were terrible persecutions and destruction of records, nothing resembling our OP practice of the faith existed from the late Apostolic era until it began to develop in the late 1800's in North America.

We've all had to rethink our understanding of Matthew 16:18 or, as many have sadly done, abandon the faith altogether. I would encourage you to have confidence in the Bible, but to be flexible when it comes to the traditions of men.
Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 09-08-2007, 09:18 PM
Barb Barb is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adino View Post
The late church historian, Rev. Marvin M. Arnold who wrote, "The Origin and Spread of Man," "History of the Christian Church," "Nicaea and the Nicene Council of AD 325," "Pentecost (Acts 2:38 in America) Before Azusa," "Apostolic History Outline" and "The Bible Trinity and Matthew 28:19" could not find a single witness to the current water/spirit interpretation. If someone else has succeeded where he failed, please show us the historical evidence. Thank you.
Respectfully, I have Apostolic History Outline and have read it through many times.

As I told someone last night, I may not be the brightest bulb in this chandelier, but I thought Bro. A showed that there was a continuation down through every century.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 09-08-2007, 09:22 PM
pelathais's Avatar
pelathais pelathais is offline
Accepts all friends requests


 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barb View Post
Respectfully, I have Apostolic History Outline and have read it through many times.

As I told someone last night, I may not be the brightest bulb in this chandelier, but I thought Bro. A showed that there was a continuation down through every century.
He presented that case at one time, however most have rejected it. I remember at the Oneness Symposiums they used to have there was a general consensus among those assembled that you should not cite dear Bro. Arnold's work.
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 09-08-2007, 09:35 PM
Barb Barb is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,616
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
He presented that case at one time, however most have rejected it. I remember at the Oneness Symposiums they used to have there was a general consensus among those assembled that you should not cite dear Bro. Arnold's work.
Really?! I am surprised and am interested as to why this is so...I mean why they came to these conclusions when it was so strongly written.
Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 09-08-2007, 09:58 PM
Adino's Avatar
Adino Adino is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,099
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barb View Post
Respectfully, I have Apostolic History Outline and have read it through many times.

As I told someone last night, I may not be the brightest bulb in this chandelier, but I thought Bro. A showed that there was a continuation down through every century.
Hello, Barb. I began sitting under Marvin Arnold around 1968-69. I stayed in the church he founded in Utica, Michigan until about 1995 without interruption. In fact, I proofread some of his work.

While Marvin Arnold was able to find traces throughout history (some highly questionable at times) of certain doctrinal distinctives used in the development of the water/spirit new birth position, he was never able to find the water/spirit doctrine as it is presented today.

Marvin Arnold saw the shortcomings of the "progressively revealed light" theory taught by early Oneness pioneers like G.T. Haywood and Frank Ewart. This theory taught that God chose to progressively disperse varying degrees of spiritual understanding during seven dispensational periods of human history. Haywood believed the newly revealed truth given to 20th century Oneness pioneers was the climax of this dispensational dispersion of spiritual light from heaven.

Haywood states,
"Very few will agree with us on this subject at the first, but if they will lay aside the doctrine of men, and for a moment remove their thoughts from the abnormal state of the present day Christianity, they will find no trouble in grasping the truth AS IT IS NOW REVEALED to many of the children of God in these closing days of the Gospel dispensation."
Frank Ewart said it this way:
"He [God] first gave the true light to a few, and then signally expressed His approval by a startling revival through the instrumentality OF THE NEW TEACHING."
Marvin Arnold rejected the idea that initial doctrinal tenets disappeared for nearly 2000 years and that newly revealed knowledge from heaven brought about a restoration of the true first century Apostolic church with its original doctrinal nuances in 20th century America. He held fast to the idea that God had a perpetually existing witness throughout the ages and that the true Apostolic church, with its original doctrinal tenets, never died.

His passionate mission was to prove this continuity by tracing through the historical record what he believed to be the doctrinal earmarks of the 1st century Apostolic church. Ironically, he might have succeeded had he not adopted Haywood and Urshan's conclusions on the new birth. But, because he too accepted the "three step" progressive new birth position, which was their legacy to Oneness Pentecostalism, he failed to find a single witness in history who taught repentance and faith, water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and Spirit filling evidenced by speaking in tongues as necessary doctrinal components which together constituted the saving new birth.

Yes, he did find throughout the ages adherents to anti-Trinitarian theology holding views of the nature of God similar to views held by early Oneness pioneers (Though other historians agree that some, if not many, of his examples were a bit of a reach and contrived).

Yes, he did find people who baptized in the name of Jesus Christ by full immersion (Yet it must be conceded that Trinitarians did this as well. In fact, the sermon on water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ which prompted Frank Ewart to more deeply study the nature of God was preached by R. E. McAlister, a Trinitarian man, hoping to head off the growing heresy of requiring people to be dipped three times at baptism).

Yes, he did find historical witness of groups who spoke in other tongues and experienced other Spirit manifestations in their Christian walk. He even found historical examples of people who combined two or more of these doctrinal distinctives found in modern Oneness Pentecostalism.

So, again, how did he fail? He failed just as all others who made the attempt have failed. Marvin Arnold was never able to provide historical witness prior to G.T. Haywood and Andrew Urshan of anyone ever teaching that man must repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and be Spirit filled with the evidence of speaking in tongues in order to be saved. The record of history shows these doctrinal tenets were not connected as components of the new birth until Haywood and Urshan began teaching their newly revealed doctrine from heaven.

Frank Ewart, Glenn Cook, G.T. Haywood, Andrew Urshan and others of their time greatly influenced current Oneness Pentecostal soteriology. Their writings show a progressive development in their thinking concerning the new birth.

Frank Ewart began to redefine the new birth by rejecting the sufficiency of Christ's imputed righteousness at conversion and by demanding a secondary experience of the Spirit which he called "the vital side of redemption" because he believed all men were "born of Satan." He also strongly promoted the "new issue" which forced a split from those who went on to form the Assemblies of God in early American Pentecostalism.

Glenn Cook, the man who baptized Ewart and Haywood, had been raised under the influence of men who followed the teachings of Alexander Campbell. Campbellites stressed baptismal sin remission rather than justification by faith alone by disregarding very plausible and grammatically sound alternative interpretations of Acts 2:38.

G.T. Haywood, under the influence of Ewart and Cook turned his back on his initial thoughts penned in 1914 that "as soon as we believe, they [our sins] become as white as snow." He ultimately arrived at a mistaken view of the new birth when he tried to repair a misuse of the terms "baptism of the Spirit" and "birth of the Spirit" in American Pentecostalism. In his noble attempt he erroneously drew speaking in tongues into the conversion experience and began to promote the new "walking in the light" theory of dispensational salvation.

Andrew Urshan did his best to explain the whole mess and came up with the "kingdom of God" VS "kingdom of heaven" controversy.

Does the absence of a historical witness and the questionable beginnings of the "three step" view in America prove it to be wrong? No, it does not, I believe an objective look at Scripture does this, but any serious study on the issue should begin with a proper understanding of this view’s heritage.
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 09-08-2007, 10:29 PM
Barb Barb is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,616
Thank you, Adino, for taking the time to post with such depth.

You must realize that I am of the water/Spirit/PAJC persuasion, thus have a hard time not holding to the belief that the continuity of the Church had to have been maintained down through the ages.

However, you have given me much to ponder. As it has been a long day, I will have to return to this in the morning, but be assured that the question girl will return.
Reply With Quote
  #90  
Old 09-08-2007, 10:40 PM
Felicity's Avatar
Felicity Felicity is offline
Step By Step - Day By Day


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,648
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adino View Post
Hello, Felicity!

Hope all is well with you and the gang. Everyone here is well. My girls just turned 17 and 13.... yikes!!! Lori's a senior in high school this year.... Mahala (Haley) is now in 8th grade. Julie and I have a 20th wedding anniversary coming up in a couple of days on the 12th.

Don't post nearly as much as I used to... too many things on the plate lately. The Lord is certainly good. Great to see you.
Wow! Lori's 17! Hard to believe! Time goes by so fast!

My oldest grandson is 11 now and my granddaughter (the youngest) just turned 8 on the 4th. Her daddy turned 33 on the 3rd and today is our 34th anniversary.

You always have lots going on!
__________________
Smiles & Blessings....
~Felicity Welsh~

(surname courtesy of Jim Yohe)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What are you reading currently? Margies3 The Library 573 02-06-2022 07:19 AM
My new book! mfblume The Library 15 05-11-2007 10:55 PM
book Sister Alvear The Library 2 04-14-2007 12:23 AM
Liberals: What books are you reading? SDG The Library 34 03-08-2007 08:22 PM
God-fearing, Bible-reading Man chosenbyone Fellowship Hall 1 02-27-2007 09:19 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Amanah
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.