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View Poll Results: Does God Get Involved In Exposing the Sins of Children For Their Parents To Know?
He does not create situations with the intent of exposing our kids disobedience to us 7 41.18%
He honors parents' authority and finds ways of exposing our kids disobedience to our rules 10 58.82%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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  #31  
Old 07-26-2007, 02:59 PM
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revrandy revrandy is offline
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Originally Posted by Amos View Post
Embraced what?
Amos.. for the sake of the thread I will leave this alone and may revisit later..
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  #32  
Old 07-26-2007, 03:21 PM
Amos Amos is offline
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Originally Posted by revrandy View Post
Amos.. for the sake of the thread I will leave this alone and may revisit later..
Why would answering the question ruin the thread?

This isn't a high-volume thread anyway.

I wonder why you brought up the Catholic church.
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"Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet's son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:

And the LORD took me as I followed the flock, and the LORD said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel."


--Amos 7:14-15
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  #33  
Old 07-26-2007, 07:19 PM
Rico Rico is offline
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Wait until you guys read about what was waiting for me when I got home.


My desk is an area that is completely off limits to my children. They aren't allowed to touch anything whatsoever that is sitting there. Well, I have a collection of lighters, one of which happened to still be on my desk upstairs. Unbeknownst to me, my youngest daughter had been secretly playing with that lighter lately. She'd go into the room, get the lighter, play with it, and then put it back so I wouldn't know someone had taken it. Today it all caught up with her.

She was in her room playing with the lighter and set a piece of paper on fire. When she couldn't blow the fire out and the paper got too hot, she dropped the paper on the floor. The corner of her blanket on fire, which in turn caught some cots under the bed on fire, which in turn caught the mattress on fire, all on one corner of the bed. My son was able to put the fire out and, other than the aforementioned items, nothing else was burned. No one was hurt, thankfully.

Given the fact that I have had this sort of thing on my mind this week, I believe God is showing me I am on the right track with my thinking. A situation that perfectly fits what I have been wondering about has happened in my life. One of my children has been disobeying me and I believe God exposed her disobedience.

I have all the confirmation I need. What are the chances that a hypothetical situation that I started a thread on this very week would come to life right before my eyes, especially with me knowing the other part of what I have had on my mind that y'all don't know about yet? Slim to none.

I have been asking God if this is one of His ways that doesn't make sense to us as humans and I believe He has given me His answer.

You see, I have had pastors on my mind quite a bit lately. Contrary to what some have accused me of being, namely a preacher hater, I have never hated preachers. The people I have shared some of my closest guarded secrets with have been the pastors in my life. When I began to see the ways in which pastors go beyond what the Bible teaches I started questioning how much authority God gives them in our lives. Exactly how much authority they have isn't really spelled out in the Bible, with the exception of things God has said to those who have gone to the extreme of actually hurting the people they are supposed to be serving.

It is something I have struggled with over the years. What I have struggled with isn't so much the idea that pastors have authority in their congregants lives. It is with how much authority God gives them and whether or not he honors some of the decisions they make that go outside of what is spelled out in black and white in His Word.

I've gone from one extreme to the other in my thinking. I started out thinking I was obligated to obey everything they say, regardless of what it was. If the preacher said, "You can't go see your mother this weekend" I would not go. If the preacher said to put our children in the church school I went along with it. If the preacher said not to buy this car, or not to move to this house, etc. etc., I obeyed, thinking they had the authority to make those kinds of decisions for me.

I have walked in the other extreme that says, "If it isn't spelled out word for word in the Bible then he has no right to tell me what I should or shouldn't be doing." Any little thing the preacher said that was even a little bit out of the Word I felt no obligation to obey and was not afraid of making it known. This is where I have been most recently in my thinking.

Then, the other day the Lord and I had some alone time. I was on my way to my new job, thinking about church, the Lord, His Word, etc. This scenario I gave you in the opening thread is the scenario I presented to God. I basically asked God, "Do you honor some of the things pastors say that maybe aren't spelled out completely in your Word? God, do you honor the authority you have placed in their lives to the extent of honoring some things they want from people, even if it isn't really something you necessarily expect from us?"

This is when the story about the son disobeying his dad came to mind. When it happened I felt that God was answering my question by asking me if I believed He ever reveals a child's disobedience to his parents.

When it happened it seemed to make sense to me. "Yes," I thought, "I believe it's possible that You reveal disobedience to a child's parent." Maybe not all the time, but, yes, I believe it happens. "Why wouldn't it be the same way with you and your pastor?" is what I felt like God was saying to me.

See, pastors are a sort of father in our lives. The role they play in the life of a saint shares some characteristics with the role my natural father plays in my life. They are there to provide guidance, advice, direction, nurturing, an example of what it means to be Christlike, and yes, even some boundries. They are not there to be our father, although I know the Bible talks about us not having many spiritual fathers, but some of the things they do for us spiritually run parallel with the types of things our natural fathers do in our lives.

It may not be a big deal to God that the son in my story was going into the city. But because it was important to the father that his son not go into the city, and because God honors the authority He has placed in the life of that son, God exposed the disobedience. I can now see how this same principle would apply in the relationship between pastor and saint.

I think I am going to make a change in how I see pastors. I think from now on I am going to make an effort to do some obeying even if what the pastor is asking from me isn't spelled out word for word in the Bible. Am I going to go back to "whatever the preacher says goes" kind of thinking? No. But I am not going to stay in the "it has to be explicitly spelled out before I believe it's for me" category either.

I am going to start giving the pastor the benefit of my doubts from today forward. I am going to be more willing to go along with some things, regardless of how I feel about them personally. Before you ask, no, I am not planning on shaving my beard! (I had to head that one off at the pass!)

By the way, I know how some of you around here like to take the ball and run with it. While I am saying that God is changing the way I see some things, I am not saying I now believe in every dress standard, rule, mandate, edict, (whatever you want to call it,) that will come forth from the pulpit of whichever pastor I end up submitting to. "Submitting" There's a word I haven't used in a long time.
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  #34  
Old 07-26-2007, 08:02 PM
philjones
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Originally Posted by Pianoman View Post
I think things just happen! Sometimes we try to read waaaaay too much into some events!
Perhaps.. but I will testify that my Dad had a vision one evening in 1975 that sobered me up and turned my life around. I stumbled in one September evening prior to the Fort Worth General Conference, drunk, high and reeking of both pot and cigarettes. There, to my chagrin, sat my dad in his well worn recliner.

He growled "sit down and shut up! I am going to tell you two things.. the first is what God told me and the second is what I am telling you!"

I immediately began to sober up and was instantly able to hear the wails of a travailing mother from the back bedroom of the parsonage.

Dad then began to tell me everywhere I had been, who I had been with, where I went, what I did while there, what I purchased, what I drank, where I bought what I drank all complete with times! I asked him who had followed me and his one word response was, "Jesus!"

He then told me that when he knelt to pray for me that night it was like he had gone to a moving picture show and God revealed to him everything he had told me and he was spot on in every detail!

He then gave me God's message. He told me that God had told him that HE was through messing with me. I had played games with my salvation and my calling to ministry long enough. If I didn't get it together God was finished with me!

By this time I was almost completely sober. Adrenalin has an amazing effect on sobriety.

Realizing that I had now sobered up, my dad then shared the second part of the revelation with me.

Using that short finger, part of which he lost to a mill saw, he pointed at me and with his piercing gray eyes boring into my tear filled brown ones he said, "Phil, if you ever come into this house in this condition again I am going to beat you like the man you think you are and then throw you and your clothes into the front yard. I will tell God and man that I never had a son named Phil."

Finally he broke and began to weep and came over and laid his hands on me and began to pray for mercy for my soul.

I had not planned to go to the Fort Worth GC with my parents but after this event it was either go with them or have them stay home with me. I went and it was there that I received a life changing experience and stepped into my call. Within months of that event I was preaching revivals with souls being saved.

So, all that said to say this: God is concerned with the salvation of your children and disobedience can and will result in your kid's souls being lost. If it is important to you and important to their salvation, Jesus will definitely bring those things done in darkness by your children to light for you parents.

you can argue with theory but it is hard to argue with experience.
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  #35  
Old 07-26-2007, 10:53 PM
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Pressing-On Pressing-On is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico View Post
I was thinking about something today. We all know the Bible teaches children are to obey their parents; honor your mother and father sort of stuff.
Well, I got to thinking about what God does when we make rules for our children. Do you y'all believe that God creates situations to expose our children's disobediance towards us parents?

Let me give you an example. Let's say a parent sets a certain radius of miles his child is allowed drive away from home. Let's say it's because the parent knows there is a larger city close by, and also knows it takes a bit more skill to drive in that town than what his child has. So, Dad tells Jr. he is not allowed to go into City "A."

At first the child obeys his father's wishes and stays out of City "A." Eventually temptation takes over, the child disobeys his dad, and goes into the forbidden city. He gets away with it a few times and going into City "A" becomes a regular habit.

One day the child goes into the city, just like he has done several times before. This time, however, the car breaks down, he has to call Dad, and Dad finds out his son has been disobeying him by going into City "A."

Do you believe that God created the situation of the car breaking down because He honors the Dad's authority over his children and the disobedience needed to be exposed because of His honoring that authority?

Or, do you believe that God had nothing to do with the car breaking down, wasn't honoring the father's authority in any way, and the whole thing happened just because it did?

I am going somewhere with this, but I want to see what the responses from our members are before I reveal why this has all been on my mind. Thank you for offering your opinion.
I believe that God both reveals and conceals.

He has told me things my children were doing, such as, my daughter was cheating on her math. She would get the Teacher's Manuel when I went to check the mail. I was washing dishes and the Lord brought it to my mind. I asked her about it. Big round eyes and then the confession. LOL!

Once we had a dent in the car door and the Lord showed me that my daughter had pulled the car out of the driveway, backed in and hit the door on the gate. I asked her about it - big round eyes and confession.

Lesson: Don't mess with Mama - she has an avenue!

BUT, there have been much more serious events that He did not tell me about in detail. Sometimes He laid it on my heart to pray and other times He didn't speak to me at all.

I conclude that there are some things our children, in their mistakes, have to go through that God doesn't think it's necessary for us to go through it too. JMHO.

I didn't mind hearing about it later, but I wouldn't have wanted to bear it at the time.
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  #36  
Old 07-26-2007, 11:03 PM
Rico Rico is offline
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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
I believe that God both reveals and conceals.

He has told me things my children were doing, such as, my daughter was cheating on her math. She would get the Teacher's Manuel when I went to check the mail. I was washing dishes and the Lord brought it to my mind. I asked her about it. Big round eyes and then the confession. LOL!

Once we had a dent in the car door and the Lord showed me that my daughter had pulled the car out of the driveway, backed in and hit the door on the gate. I asked her about it - big round eyes and confession.

Lesson: Don't mess with Mama - she has an avenue!

BUT, there have been much more serious events that He did not tell me about in detail. Sometimes He laid it on my heart to pray and other times He didn't speak to me at all.

I conclude that there are some things our children, in their mistakes, have to go through that God doesn't think it's necessary for us to go through it too. JMHO.

I didn't mind hearing about it later, but I wouldn't have wanted to bear it at the time.
Sister, do you think I am misapplying the lesson by transferring it from something that happens in our parental relationships to something that happens in pastoral relationships? The point for me really isn't God exposing disobedience, although I will say I have heard pastors talk about God showing them that Brother So and So was secretly watching tv in his home. The point is in God honoring the authority He's established over us.
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  #37  
Old 07-26-2007, 11:09 PM
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Pressing-On Pressing-On is offline
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Originally Posted by Rico View Post
Sister, do you think I am misapplying the lesson by transferring it from something that happens in our parental relationships to something that happens in pastoral relationships? The point for me really isn't God exposing disobedience, although I will say I have heard pastors talk about God showing them that Brother So and So was secretly watching tv in his home. The point is in God honoring the authority He's established over us.
No, I don't because God doesn't just show parents. He also shows pastors, but don't forget that He also shows the saints.

When we have His Spirit we are simply anointed to do the work He has called us to do. Sometimes He must reveal things to us for better understanding. In that I mean that you can have a brick wall in front of you in the church and if God is desirous He will reveal what that wall is.

It doesn't matter who is causing it - ministry or saint - He will reveal it. He will cause things to manifest in order to reveal it.

I could give some prime examples, but I won't. Dreams are one way - believe that!

So the bottom line is - If God is desirous to do it. Like I said, even in our childrearing He doesn't reveal everything. There are some things He will take care of that we don't really need to know. It is for that child's sake and through that they see that God was personal to their lives. That is my opinion and I don't believe I'm wrong on that.
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  #38  
Old 07-26-2007, 11:26 PM
Rico Rico is offline
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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
No, I don't because God doesn't just show parents. He also shows pastors, but don't forget that He also shows the saints.

When we have His Spirit we are simply anointed to do the work He has called us to do. Sometimes He must reveal things to us for better understanding. In that I mean that you can have a brick wall in front of you in the church and if God is desirous He will reveal what that wall is.

It doesn't matter who is causing it - ministry or saint - He will reveal it. He will cause things to manifest in order to reveal it.

I could give some prime examples, but I won't. Dreams are one way - believe that!

So the bottom line is - If God is desirous to do it. Like I said, even in our childrearing He doesn't reveal everything. There are some things He will take care of that we don't really need to know. It is for that child's sake and through that they see that God was personal to their lives. That is my opinion and I don't believe I'm wrong on that.

I agree with you that God doesn't do it with everything. There have been instances in which He has revealed things to me without Him having to create a situation that exposed disobedience.

What is your opinion on God honoring a pastor's authority, even on some things maybe He doesn't require of us?
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  #39  
Old 07-26-2007, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Rico View Post
I agree with you that God doesn't do it with everything. There have been instances in which He has revealed things to me without Him having to create a situation that exposed disobedience.

What is your opinion on God honoring a pastor's authority, even on some things maybe He doesn't require of us?
My mind is full of things when you say, "pastor's authority", so could you reword that question another way?
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  #40  
Old 07-26-2007, 11:36 PM
Rico Rico is offline
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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
My mind is full of things when you say, "pastor's authority", so could you reword that question another way?
We all agree that pastors carry a certain amount of authority in the lives of saints God has entrusted them to lead, right? If you agree that God has done this, do you also believe that God will honor that authority if he instructs you to do something that may not be completely spelled out in the Bible?

I hate to drag standards into this question, but let's say your pastor believes in long sleeves, and asks the church to adopt that standard. You don't see anywhere in the Bible that God requires long sleeves. If you do not adopt that standard is it possible that God will see you as being disobedient, even though He never explicitly said He requires long sleeves from His people?
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