Sinful union?

[Adino]

Wikipedia begins its definition of "Spiritual Death" with the following:

"In Christian theology, Spiritual Death is defined as a spiritual separation from God, usually brought on by sin. Christians believe that both spiritual death and physical death (defined in this context to be the separation of the body and the soul) were brought into the world through the The Fall of Man....."

Because of the abrupt realities involved, most of us better grasp the concept of physical death than we do spiritual death. When we see a loved one lying in a coffin we realize the real person is no longer present but has "departed." We recognize that a separation has occurred, that a union of spirit and flesh has been broken.

When we begin to think of spiritual death we attempt to understand what it means for the human spirit to have "died" because of the Fall. We attempt to again grasp the idea of separation and what it meant for the Spirit of God to have departed from the spirit of man breaking a once existing union between the two.

When the human spirit departs from the physical body only a lifeless vestige of the real person remains. In like fashion, the Spirit of Life departed from the human spirit leaving only a darkened shadow of God's real intended creation. The intended creation involved fellowship with God through a union of His Spirit with ours.

Sin broke union of man's spirit with God by forcing that which was holy to depart. Sin brought separation - the wage of Sin was death.

I think most on this forum would agree with this so far. Some might even think this elementary.

Sin brought separation - now let's focus on reunion and get to a question.

In order for the human spirit to become alive again there must be a reestablishment of the union between the human spirit and God. The human spirit must be quickened to life by virtue of being united with the Spirit of God. For this to take place that which causes separation must be removed.

Since the holy nature of God prohibits union with anything considered sinful, how is it the theology of many on this forum seems to suggest that God can dwell in and/or become unified with a heart which has not had sin removed?

Is this not precisely what most here would say happened in the case of Cornelius in Acts 10 and happens to anyone who speaks in tongues prior to being water baptized?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

God bless

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Adino

Wikipedia begins its definition of "Spiritual Death" with the following:



Because of the abrupt realities involved, most of us better grasp the concept of physical death than we do spiritual death. When we see a loved one lying in a coffin we realize the real person is no longer present but has "departed." We recognize that a separation has occurred, that a union of spirit and flesh has been broken.

When we begin to think of spiritual death we attempt to understand what it means for the human spirit to have "died" because of the Fall. We attempt to again grasp the idea of separation and what it meant for the Spirit of God to have departed from the spirit of man breaking a once existing union between the two.

When the human spirit departs from the physical body only a lifeless vestige of the real person remains. In like fashion, the Spirit of Life departed from the human spirit leaving only a darkened shadow of God's real intended creation. The intended creation involved fellowship with God through a union of His Spirit with ours.

Sin broke union of man's spirit with God by forcing that which was holy to depart. Sin brought separation - the wage of Sin was death.

I think most on this forum would agree with this so far. Some might even think this elementary.

Sin brought separation - now let's focus on reunion and get to a question.

In order for the human spirit to become alive again there must be a reestablishment of the union between the human spirit and God. The human spirit must be quickened to life by virtue of being united with the Spirit of God. For this to take place that which causes separation must be removed.

Since the holy nature of God prohibits union with anything considered sinful, how is it the theology of many on this forum seems to suggest that God can dwell in and/or become unified with a heart which has not had sin removed?

Is this not precisely what most here would say happened in the case of Cornelius in Acts 10 and happens to anyone who speaks in tongues prior to being water baptized?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

God bless

Brilliant as always? Considering you have only 4 other posts. Yet I was reading them recently ... and your understanding of the New Birth and John 3 is something that we all could learn from

Your thoughts on why God cannot dwell in a sinful vessel is one reason why the doctrine of baptismal remission holds no merit ...

Also, remission is not a different concept than forgiveness ... the original Greek uses the same word "aphesis".

Perhaps you can speak about the pet verse objection that will undoubtedly surface in this thread ....

And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. Acts 22:16 KJV

[KwaiQ]

Originally Posted by Adino

Since the holy nature of God prohibits union with anything considered sinful, how is it the theology of many on this forum seems to suggest that God can dwell in and/or become unified with a heart which has not had sin removed?
God bless

Where do you get the concept that God will not dwell where there is sin? Scripture please?

[mizpeh]

Adino,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adino
Since the holy nature of God prohibits union with anything considered sinful, how is it the theology of many on this forum seems to suggest that God can dwell in and/or become unified with a heart which has not had sin removed?
God bless


KwaiQ wrote:

What happens when we sin? Does the Spirit of God move out immediately and come back after we repent and are washed in blood of Jesus?

When King David sinned by committing adultery and murder why did he ask God not to take his Holy Spirit from him? He had already sinned yet he did not feel the Holy Spirit leave him.

[mizpeh]

Adino,

When we begin to think of spiritual death we attempt to understand what it means for the human spirit to have "died" because of the Fall. We attempt to again grasp the idea of separation and what it meant for the Spirit of God to have departed from the spirit of man breaking a once existing union between the two.

What do you mean by the bolded part?

When the human spirit departs from the physical body only a lifeless vestige of the real person remains. In like fashion, the Spirit of Life departed from the human spirit leaving only a darkened shadow of God's real intended creation. The intended creation involved fellowship with God through a union of His Spirit with ours.

When did this union take place? Are you referring to a similar type of union which we have now with God when we are filled with the Spirit of Christ?

But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 1Cor 6:17

Sin broke union of man's spirit with God by forcing that which was holy to depart. Sin brought separation - the wage of Sin was death.

I think most on this forum would agree with this so far. Some might even think this elementary.

Hmmm, I guess I'm not too quick to catch on. Are you speaking about Adam and God in the garden of Eden? Why do you think Adam was filled with the Holy Spirit? What scripture tells us this?

Sin brought separation - now let's focus on reunion and get to a question.

In order for the human spirit to become alive again there must be a reestablishment of the union between the human spirit and God. The human spirit must be quickened to life by virtue of being united with the Spirit of God. For this to take place that which causes separation must be removed.

You haven't proved your point about the union between the human spirit and God. I agree sin separates us from God because the Bible clearly states it so.

Since the holy nature of God prohibits union with anything considered sinful, how is it the theology of many on this forum seems to suggest that God can dwell in and/or become unified with a heart which has not had sin removed?

Is this not precisely what most here would say happened in the case of Cornelius in Acts 10 and happens to anyone who speaks in tongues prior to being water baptized?

We all are encased in sinful flesh. By your logic I wonder how God can dwell in us since we have sin abiding/dwelling in our flesh.

Romans 7:17-23 NASV So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.


Not everyone would agree with you because some folks believe we are forgiven at repentance and sins are remitted at baptism.

I understand forgiveness and remission to be the same Greek word, so yes, if you are filled with the Spirit before water baptism then your sins still need to be blotted out. I'm not sure I have ever heard anyone preach on how our hearts or consciences are sin stained. Or what does the Bible means by 'the body of sin' that is removed by the circumcision of the Spirit which happens at water baptism. What is meant by the 'body of sin' which is always associated with burial and water baptism.

Col 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Romans 6:3-6 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Is having a body of sins that needs to be blotted out or remitted or forgivne the same as being a sinner?

As for Cornelius, Peter said: Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him Acts 10:34-35

Cornelius was accepted of God and worked righteousness. He was not sinning actively with forethought.


A couple of questions for you. How do you interpret these scriptures?

Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Acts 15:7-9....Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by KwaiQ

Where do you get the concept that God will not dwell where there is sin? Scripture please?

Hello KwaiQ, nice to meet you.

The concept is that a holy God cannot fellowship with sin simply because sin causes separation from God. Sin violates the sovereignty of God. Sin says that God's rule is not to be followed thereby making the one who commits the sin "a god himself" (Gen 3:5) by taking his word above that of the true God. Lordship transfers from the true God to the transgressor. Since there is but one God, this breach of the first commandment simply cannot be. The wage of sin is death (Romans 6:23). You cannot have sin present and God present at the same time. The transgressor vies for Lordship when he sins. God's Lordship demands that all sin be removed from his presence. Sin's consequence is separation.

Aside from this simple fact of sin's consequence we are also to understand that by virtue of being in Christ we are "in God" (Romans 8:1, 12:5; John 6:56, 10:37 ). We are to understand that God is holy (Psalm 99:5; Lev 11:44,45; 1Peter 1:15,16). We are to understand that in God there is no unrighteousness (Psalm 92:15), no darkness (1John 1:5) and, above all, in God there is no sin (1John 3:5).

Because God does not change (Mal 3:6) his holiness cannot be compromised. Therefore, we who are united with God via his Spirit must be viewed as sanctified in his eyes. Only those sanctified are acceptable to God (Romans 15:16). We are saved through sanctification of the Spirit (2Thessalonians 2:13). We are sanctified by virtue of being "in Christ/in Him" by the Spirit (1Corinthians 1:2; 6:11). God will not/cannot fellowship with the unsanctified. In fact, the priests were to be sanctified when in His presence or die (It seems that pesky principle will simply not go away. Where there is sin there is always death/separation.) (Exodus 28; 30; 40; Numbers 18). This brings us back to Cornelius. How could Cornelius be unsanctified yet have the indwelling Spirit?

Can you help us to understand how God became spiritually united with Cornelius before sin, the cause of his separation from God, was removed?

Thanks

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Adino,


What happens when we sin? Does the Spirit of God move out immediately and come back after we repent and are washed in blood of Jesus?

When King David sinned by committing adultery and murder why did he ask God not to take his Holy Spirit from him? He had already sinned yet he did not feel the Holy Spirit leave him.

Hello mizpeh, nice to meet you also.

Q: What happens when we sin (after receiving salvation)?
A: We recognize our sin, realize God dealt with it on Calvary and thank him for not holding it against us who have faith in him.

Q: Does the Spirit of God move out immediately and come back after we repent and are washed in blood of Jesus?
A: No. We abide in him and he in us.

These answers should cover your David question as well.

I see you have another post.... I will try to get to it when I can.

God bless

[Adino]

Mizpeh,

"...Spirit of God to have departed from the spirit of man breaking a once existing union between the two."

What do you mean by the bolded part?

I mean that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Life. Man's spirit only truly lives when in fellowship with the Spirit of Life.

When did this union take place? Are you referring to a similar type of union which we have now with God when we are filled with the Spirit of Christ?

The eternal life taken from man in the garden is given to those today who have faith in God through Christ. This Spirit of eternal Life is the Spirit of God himself. Oneness Pentecostals would stress the point that the Holy Spirit (of Life) is God himself. Again, we only truly live when in holy fellowship with God. Since death speaks of separation and Adam died spiritually in the garden we must consider how his spirit was separated from God.

Hmmm, I guess I'm not too quick to catch on. Are you speaking about Adam and God in the garden of Eden? Why do you think Adam was filled with the Holy Spirit? What scripture tells us this?

The point is that Adam began in spiritual life. His sin resulted in not only physical death, but spiritual death as well. Adam's human spirit was no longer in communion with the eternal life giving Spirit of God as it had been before the fall.

We all are encased in sinful flesh. By your logic I wonder how God can dwell in us since we have sin abiding/dwelling in our flesh.

He can fellowship with us because our sin has been dealt with. We have been reconciled unto God and saved by his life. We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to our account and rest in his finished saving work on Calvary.

Cornelius was accepted of God and worked righteousness. He was not sinning actively with forethought.

Are you saying he did not need sin remission and the indwelling Spirit?

A couple of questions for you. How do you interpret these scriptures?

Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

I believe that what God cleanses should not be called common (or unclean). His purification is sufficient.

Acts 15:7-9....Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

I realize God gave Cornelius the Spirit only AFTER he heard the Gospel and believed. God, who alone knows the heart of man, recognized that Cornelius' heart had received the good news of Christ and gave him the Spirit as witness to this internal miracle which had just taken place within the confines of Cornelius' heart. Cornelius' heart was purified by faith and the Spirit which was given to Cornelius to bear witness of his faith then overwhelmed him the point of manifesting tongues. This manifestation was for the benefit of Peter to show him that God had poured out eternal life on the Gentiles as well as on the Jews. Peter's peers later recognize this when they voice to all that God had granted also to the gentiles repentance unto life.

Thank you for your thoughts, mizpeh. God bless.

Back to work in the morning. Not quite sure when I'll be able to return. If there is more you would like to discuss I will try to get back when I free up some more time.

[Adino]

mizpeh,

"...Spirit of God to have departed from the spirit of man breaking a once existing union between the two."

What do you mean by the bolded part?

I mean that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Life. Man's spirit only truly lives when in fellowship with the Spirit of Life.

When did this union take place? Are you referring to a similar type of union which we have now with God when we are filled with the Spirit of Christ?

The eternal life taken from man in the garden is given to those today who have faith in God through Christ. This Spirit of eternal Life is the Spirit of God himself. Oneness Pentecostals would stress the point that the Holy Spirit (of Life) is God himself. Again, we only truly live when in holy fellowship with God.

Hmmm, I guess I'm not too quick to catch on. Are you speaking about Adam and God in the garden of Eden? Why do you think Adam was filled with the Holy Spirit? What scripture tells us this?

The point is that Adam began in spiritual life. His sin resulted in not only physical death, but spiritual death as well. Adam's human spirit was no longer in communion with the eternal life giving Spirit of God as it had been before the fall.

We all are encased in sinful flesh. By your logic I wonder how God can dwell in us since we have sin abiding/dwelling in our flesh.

He can fellowship with us because our sin has been dealt with. We have been reconciled unto God and saved by his life. We have the righteousness of Christ imputed to our account and rest in his finished saving work on Calvary.

Cornelius was accepted of God and worked righteousness. He was not sinning actively with forethought.

Are you saying he did not need sin remission and the indwelling Spirit?

A couple of questions for you. How do you interpret these scriptures?

Acts 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

I believe that what God cleanses should not be called common (or unclean). His purification is sufficient.

Acts 15:7-9....Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

I realize God gave Cornelius the Spirit only AFTER he heard the Gospel and believed. God, who alone knows the heart of man, recognized that Cornelius' heart had received the good news of Christ and gave him the Spirit as witness to this internal miracle which had just taken place within the confines of Cornelius' heart. Cornelius' heart was purified by faith and the Spirit which was given to Cornelius to bear witness of his faith then overwhelmed him the point of manifesting tongues. This manifestation was for the benefit of Peter to show him that God had poured out eternal life on the Gentiles as well as on the Jews. Peter's peers later recognize this when they voice to all that God had granted also to the gentiles repentance unto life.

Thank you for your thoughts, mizpeh. God bless.

Back to work in the morning. Not quite sure when I'll be able to return.

[J-Roc]

Looks like he is going all TaeKwonDo on y'all