Question About Predestination

[Esaias]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
(Ephesians 1:3-6)

1. We have been blessed with all spiritual blessings "in Christ". Whatever spiritual blessings we receive, they are "in Christ". We do not get blessed with the spiritual blessing of predestination or salvation or justification or any other thing apart from Christ. We are justified because we are in Christ, for example. Being in Christ places one in a position to receive and inherit all spiritual blessings. Those blessings are in Christ, and you and I partake of them as we are in Christ, not the other way around.

2. We are chosen "in Him". We are not chosen 'to be in Him' but we are chosen "in Him". Being in Christ is what makes us 'chosen', not the other way around.

3. Again, we have been predestinated (our destination was previously determined) "unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself". This is the same thing Paul said in Romans. We have been predestinated to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ, meaning we have been predestinated to be conformed to the image of Christ, that is, we have been predestinated to enter the new covenant. Note: It is not that we have been predestinated to be finally saved because God saw that we would enter the new covenant!. That would put it backwards from what the apostle said. Predestination, according to Paul, is unto that which some here are claiming is the REASON for the predestination!

They say God saw we would convert, so he predestinated us to be saved. But Paul says we were predestinated to CONVERT! Meaning, God in ages past settled it that the saints would become Christians, children of God by Jesus Christ. THAT is what is predestinated, our entering the new covenant. Exactly as he said in Romans.

But notice! All this takes place 'in Christ'! By entering into Christ, we enter into that previously chosen destiny that God marked out for His people Israel.

God planned for Israel to become Christians, and to Christians it may be said with authority 'you were chosen IN CHRIST, you were predestinated to the adoption', etc.

But notice once again! Who is predestinated to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ? Let's go back to Romans, shall we?

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
(Romans 9:1-5)

Israelites (according to the flesh, the actual, natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) are the ones to whom pertains... the adoption. And to them also pertains the covenants (plural!, both the Old and the New!) and the service of God.

The doctrine of the apostle is that Israel, the people whom God foreknew, was predestinated or previously ordained to be adopted as sons of God through Messiah, enter the new covenant, serve God, etc.

The false doctrine that God decreed in eternity past the specific individuals who would believe and finally be saved, and the individuals who would not believe and finally be lost, is simply nowhere to be found in scripture. Calvin and Arminius and their followers have lost sight of the CONTEXT and the DEFINITIONS, as supplied by the Bible writers themselves.

[Esaias]

Now, on to the subject of the certainty of the future. Many logical arguments can be made regarding the nature of the 'future', whether arguing that the future is fixed and certain, or flexible and consisting of possibilities. But what does the Bible say?

Now will I sing to my wellbeloved a song of my beloved touching his vineyard. My wellbeloved hath a vineyard in a very fruitful hill: And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes. And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard. What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes? And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down: And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it. For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.
(Isaiah 5:1-7)

This passage is impossible if the future is fixed and certain. God specifically declares he did all he could do, and that he expected a specific outcome, but the outcome turned out different than he desired. The subject matter involves the choices of men. He set everything up for Israel to be able to do right and do justice, but they rebelled and failed. He 'looked for' justice, but found injustice. The fact that God 'looked for' something, is a plain statement that God had expectations of men that were not fulfilled. The reason is obvious: the men chose evil instead of good, injustice instead of justice.

If their choices were known to be certainties by God in eternity past, then God cannot honestly say he looked for anything other than what he supposedly knew would certainly come to pass - their failure. The fact God expected his people to do right, and the fact they did not do right, and the fact that God was upset with them not doing right, is irrefutable proof that either God is just as clueless as to the future as we are... or that the future is not fixed and certain, men do indeed have what is called 'free will', God really and truly does EXPECT men to do right, and God really and truly is UPSET when they do not.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

WHEN did God know our choices? That's the issue.

before we made them. but we still made them.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by berkeley

Esaias' posts border along the line of open theism.

That's what I was wondering.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That's what I was wondering.

"Open theism" is a broad encompassing term, the definition of which depends on who you ask.

I adhere to the Bible. I am an advocate of "apostolic theism".

But the subject of predestination is more about the nature of time and anthropology (nature of man), specifically the question of free will and volition, and the nature of "knowledge" (epistemology) in general, and of God's knowledge of the present and future in particular.

[Arphaxad]

If God rolled a couple of dice does he know what number would come up, or is it he knows all of the possible outcomes and has contingencies in place that fulfill his purpose?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

If God rolled a couple of dice does he know what number would come up, or is it he knows all of the possible outcomes and has contingencies in place that fulfill his purpose?

According to the Bible God determines the oucome of the lot, which rolling dice is a form of the lot. Therefore the outcome of the lot/dice throw is contingent upon what God chooses as the outcome.

This is different than human choices.