Respect as Women

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

PO, more to the point of ILG's thread (although I think this is a good, if not predictable, rabbit trail), do you agree that the conservative church creates a framework of respect for women? I'm curious as to what you think of the conservative lifestyle outside of a rulebook or even any real or perceived scriptural mandate.

I don't think it was a rabbit trail, but I digress. lol

You know what startled me the most when I starting attending a Pentecostal church? The men were so stinking nice, I thought some were flirting with me. LOL! So, in answer to your question - huge respect. I wasn't used to it.

When I try to compartmentalize and look at our lifestyle impersonally and sort of "outside myself", I see that there are things I'm attached to and find beneficial and agreeable, regardless of whether they are scriptural. I definitely agree that there are old-fashioned values which support women in traditional roles, while those same values might hinder freedom of choice in non-traditional roles. Some of our practices make us stand apart from the secular world in a positive way, and even command respect.

I think that we certainly can and do stand apart from the secular world in a positive way, and I have never experienced disrespect because of my beliefs. I may think of some incident after I log out, but it would be very few.

I also believe that some have presented themselves in a negative way by how they dress and act in the community. But, that's people for you.

I remember a women in town, who is now the Mayor's wife, sharing that in her daily walk past my house, she heard me correcting my children. She said she was surprised that I wasn't using curse words. I was thinking, "That's what you do to your children? Really?" We were raised Catholic and my parents would never have cursed at us. I couldn't imagine cursing at my children.

I started a book from my sister some time ago called A Return to Modesty: Discovering the Lost Virtue by Wendy Shalit (a Jewish woman). She discusses modesty and its benefits at great length, initially from an outsider's POV. It's the most intellectual and fresh look at modesty I've ever read, although Steve Pixler's blog/book on modesty is still my favorite, particularly since it's from an Apostolic point of view.

When I encounter Muslim women at the grocery store or other women who obviously ascribe to modesty and conservatism, I feel appreciation for their choice and respect their ability to make a hard choice in such an immodest and liberal world. At the same time, I usually have a twinge of...something...hoping that it was indeed their choice, and they weren't forced into something that wasn't of their making. My take is that as long as the lifestyle is freely and knowledgeably chosen, it can be positive and beneficial. If the lifestyle is forced, it's negative from the get-go. Working from that theory, there has to be a way to both raise our children in the Apostolic church and still somehow allow them the leeway to mature into their choices or make as many of their own choices as possible.

Here again, God found me and here I am. I agreed to follow Him, but He chose me first. So, really it was His choice in the first place. Again, I am very simplistic in that, His will is paramount. It's like asking your earthly father for permission. I tell God and ask Him about everything. I even tattle on my husband. (lol) I'm just a little girl in His world. He gives me everything. I don't mature into choices. I ask Him if I can have them. I don't really know how to live any other way.

I asked Him about the hair issue. He showed me Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden and that what He made was good - male and female, made He them. That was the order and authority in the first part of Corinthians. Then he showed me gender distinction. That's the second part referring to hair. So, I didn't make a choice about my hair. I asked God about it. I agree with my daughter. If my hair is long, I have not violated scripture.

So, in a nutshell, I don't believe there are choices outside of the will of God - ever. I am not my own, I was bought with a price. A huge price - the price of blood. How do I make my own choices with that knowledge?

Coming back to clarify on the topic of "choices". I am certainly not speaking in terms of whether I will decide to take a bath, do the laundry or whether I want a Smoothie or an egg and oatmeal for breakfast. I can decide those things on my own. LOL!

[votivesoul]

Having been a lost sinner longer than I've been a saint (and having been an adult lost sinner, too), who, as a saint, went to a secular, state university (partially as a single man, partially as a married man), I think I can speak to the issue.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the church is the only safe haven for women these days.

Now, not every organization, denomination, or even local assembly may be so safe (sadly), but in terms of the Bride of Christ (and not just some group using the word "church"), there is no doubt that being one of, and living among, the people of God, secures a woman's safety, rights, and privileges, in a way that no other place on earth can (or even wants to).

In college, I never saw so many women debauch themselves on a regular basis. But guess what? To them, it was but normal life. Only to me (and perhaps a few others), who had embraced a Christian morality, did the lewd, drunken, provocative, and loose behavior of these unsaved women appear to be appalling.

For all else, it was but LSOP. And there wasn't a man who cared. The drunker a woman became, the more lustful the men became. The closer she came to taking of her clothes, the more the men were ready to take advantage of her vulnerability.

And many of the female professors rejoiced, seeing it as the liberalization of the poor repressed gender.

But in the Church (which is compared to a woman, mind you), women are called sisters and mothers. The vision John received of the church in Revelation is how (or ought to be how) men treat, and think of, all woman.

Every saintly woman of God therefore, so represents the Church/Bride. And every saintly man of God so represents the Lord. Women should treat the men as if they collectively are Christ, and the men ought to treat the women as though collectively, as if they are the Church.

If and when this happens, it's glorious. It's a return to pre-Fall Eden, as much as can be had, at least, in this life.

The bottom-line? If I was a woman and not a man, I could think of no where else I would rather be than in the Church of the Living God. Knowing what I know, I would never want to be a woman in the world today, especially in this 21st century American culture, if I was not saved.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Having been a lost sinner longer than I've been a saint (and having been an adult lost sinner, too), who, as a saint, went to a secular, state university (partially as a single man, partially as a married man), I think I can speak to the issue.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the church is the only safe haven for women these days.

Now, not every organization, denomination, or even local assembly may be so safe (sadly), but in terms of the Bride of Christ (and not just some group using the word "church"), there is no doubt that being one of, and living among, the people of God, secures a woman's safety, rights, and privileges, in a way that no other place on earth can (or even wants to).

In college, I never saw so many women debauch themselves on a regular basis. But guess what? To them, it was but normal life. Only to me (and perhaps a few others), who had embraced a Christian morality, did the lewd, drunken, provocative, and loose behavior of these unsaved women appear to be appalling.

For all else, it was but LSOP. And there wasn't a man who cared. The drunker a woman became, the more lustful the men became. The closer she came to taking of her clothes, the more the men were ready to take advantage of her vulnerability.

And many of the female professors rejoiced, seeing it as the liberalization of the poor repressed gender.

But in the Church (which is compared to a woman, mind you), women are called sisters and mothers. The vision John received of the church in Revelation is how (or ought to be how) men treat, and think of, all woman.

Every saintly woman of God therefore, so represents the Church/Bride. And every saintly man of God so represents the Lord. Women should treat the men as if they collectively are Christ, and the men ought to treat the women as though collectively, as if they are the Church.

If and when this happens, it's glorious. It's a return to pre-Fall Eden, as much as can be had, at least, in this life.

The bottom-line? If I was a woman and not a man, I could think of no where else I would rather be than in the Church of the Living God. Knowing what I know, I would never want to be a woman in the world today, especially in this 21st century American culture, if I was not saved.

This is so true!

Votive, did it ever accrue to you to write a book for Apostolic men?
And I see a few women on here that could write a book on modesty.

I believe that we need more books in the church, written by Apostolics.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by renee819

This is so true!

Votive, did it ever accrue to you to write a book for Apostolic men?
And I see a few women on here that could write a book on modesty.

I believe that we need more books in the church, written by Apostolics.

Thanks, Renee.

I've got so many projects on the stove, and with everything else going in life! Maybe one day I'll finish one of them.

But if you're interested, I have a few things I've written over the years, that I'm willing to send your way???

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I do understand that she stated they are her theories. I am just thinking that if I had given my daughter a choice, we would have had chaos in our home. It would have been chaos because we taught them no matter how hard the situation, we must find the will of God for our lives. That was more important than a "choice". I'm pretty simplistic about it - you can't have a choice out of the will of God. That is my pragmatic view.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the bolded above.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

When I encounter Muslim women at the grocery store or other women who obviously ascribe to modesty and conservatism, I feel appreciation for their choice and respect their ability to make a hard choice in such an immodest and liberal world. At the same time, I usually have a twinge of...something...hoping that it was indeed their choice, and they weren't forced into something that wasn't of their making. My take is that as long as the lifestyle is freely and knowledgeably chosen, it can be positive and beneficial. If the lifestyle is forced, it's negative from the get-go. Working from that theory, there has to be a way to both raise our children in the Apostolic church and still somehow allow them the leeway to mature into their choices or make as many of their own choices as possible.

This.

I think that there are things that are taught that are beneficial and positive as I outlined in my post on individual standards. Now, I believe that all these principles and benefits can be applied and achieved outside of the church, without any rules at all and so, my theory has been that, at least in my situation, it has been more beneficial to leave than to stay in the toxic environment. I don't believe that this has to be the choice for every person. For example, it might be right for Miss B to stay there with her family. I don't know. I can't say. However, sometimes I fear that we may be losing some of that in my household. However, sometimes it's just a matter of a pendulum swing and things balance out in the long run. I think the truth is, we all live our own theories and we are all a bit unsure that it is the perfect solution, and probably there isn't one. For me, I have grown much closer to my extended family since leaving (since I am no longer in that weird church) but I have also grown much closer to my immediate family. However, sometimes the things my kids say make me cringe. And I am hoping that time will bring them back. The truth is, that being in the church would not have prevented this, as I think it happens in every family no matter what their beliefs are.

However, there are things that I have learned that I do hold dear to and I don't want to lose regardless of the choices made. I think having the core beliefs on the inside are more important than having a form of them on the outside. (Although the form can be a reflection of what is on the inside.) I just feel it is so much more important to have it on the inside than to argue over the form it takes. But I will always be thankful for what I learned coming in from the outside. I am not sure if these things were taught to me by God in spite of the form or because of it. But I still have a deep respect for those things and what they stand for and I think I always will. It can be hurtful when people still in the church think we on the outside are opposed to everything they stand for. That isn't true. I think the one thing that people who leave are against is the teaching that they are salvational and that makes the bad outweigh the good for many of us.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

You know what startled me the most when I starting attending a Pentecostal church? The men were so stinking nice, I thought some were flirting with me. LOL! So, in answer to your question - huge respect. I wasn't used to it.

This was true for me as well, but I think something to consider is that the respect was better than where we came from but maybe not better than some men outside the church treat women. I am not sure this is a church/non-church thing. It may be we just were in a crummy culture growing up. I know I was, for sure. I was raised Catholic, but the church was not my main place of meeting/knowing people.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In college, I never saw so many women debauch themselves on a regular basis. But guess what? To them, it was but normal life. Only to me (and perhaps a few others), who had embraced a Christian morality, did the lewd, drunken, provocative, and loose behavior of these unsaved women appear to be appalling.

For all else, it was but LSOP. And there wasn't a man who cared. The drunker a woman became, the more lustful the men became. The closer she came to taking of her clothes, the more the men were ready to take advantage of her vulnerability.

And many of the female professors rejoiced, seeing it as the liberalization of the poor repressed gender.
.

I think this is largely true. I know a number of good women outside the church who would not behave in such ways, but they are mature women. I think that part of the problem with much in the world today is how birth control is used. Before birth control, people had to think more about how sex=babies. Now, sex just equals sex (supposedly).

Much of this revolves around children and how to raise them. I think it is so sad for girls to go to college in this atmosphere. Well, it's sad for the boys too, because they get the wrong idea, possibly for a lifetime. One goal I had for my children was to NOT raised them in this culture. I have succeeded in that, at least. My daughter sees the difference, although she is confused having been raised in the church and now being outside of it. However, I can't protect her from everything and could not even if we were in the church. She is a young woman, and I just hope I have protected her enough.

I think the church has missed it in the rearing of children and the raising of families. People are not taught how to raise children. They are taught to make them follow rules and win souls. That's about it. But this is something sadly lacking in the world at large....kids grow up and are thrown to college. We lived in a college town and a bunch of boys were holding up a sign at the beginning of the year when the new freshmen were coming to town that said "Parents, thank you for your girls". It made me shudder.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by ILG

I'm not quite sure what you mean by the bolded above.

I don't have a lot of time today...just about to walk out the door, so I will give my responses and then log out.

Bratti presents this scenario and choice her daughter would have to make. I am wondering, for the sake of unity in a household, how is this any different than accepting the family's parental choice? I don't see much difference between the importance of a family member and a marriage decision on compliance. Why does the wife have to hold to a stricter instruction than a minor child? You have to have unity. If not, you have a bit of chaos and people pulling in opposite directions.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

One of my girls is interested in an ultra-con boy, and I had a serious discussion with her about the importance of accepting the rules that go along with the *lifestyle* for the long term and whether or not that was doable. For the good of the relationship, you have to go into with your eyes open, knowing that you can accept living by a set of rules even if you don't necessarily think they're biblical or necessary.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't have a lot of time today...just about to walk out the door, so I will give my responses and then log out.

Bratti presents this scenario and choice her daughter would have to make. I am wondering, for the sake of unity in a household, how is this any different than accepting the family's parental choice? I don't see much difference between the importance of a family member and a marriage decision on compliance. Why does the wife have to hold to a stricter instruction than a minor child? You have to have unity. If not, you have a bit of chaos and people pulling in opposite directions.

Unity is not the same as uniformity.