Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years Later

[Dichotomy Girl]

So, I was searching around some of my old threads, and found the thread I started when I decided to leave the UPC.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ead.php?t=4851

And I thought it would be interesting to examine if anyone's dire predictions came to pass. Or if those who thought that I'd find my way, were correct. Not to mention if my good intentions stayed strong, or petered out.


Then:
06/12/07
Name: Michlow
Age: 32

Relationship Status: Married to Matthew, for 8.5 years. He had Asperger's Syndrome which made him near impossible to be an equal partner in our relationship. (He refused to work, and spent all day playing video games for example). I was desperately unhappy, but believed that God hated divorce. I prayed for the Rapture, to be put out of misery A LOT!

Children: None. We were unable (I believed thankfully after a time) to have children.

Spirituality: I had experienced some bad, unhealthy, church situations where Authority was misused. I was very angry at God, and absolutely refused to allow someone else (i.e. a Pastor) to control my spirituality.

Some quotes:

Originally Posted by Michlow

I have openly admitted that I have spent the last 3 years not even liking God, because he seemed a cruel and capricious deity, who demanded absolute perfection. And one cannot be in right relationship with a God they do not like or trust.

Originally Posted by Michlow

Right now, these are the only things that I know to be Truth:

God Is.

Jesus is God.

Receving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost changed me inside.

I can make no claims about the Bible, or salvation doctorine, or the church.

Originally Posted by Michlow

The good news is that I am stubborn, and I am determined to know God!

But I was sill pretty much a 3 stepper, stating that even if I didn't know if it was the only way, I still pretty much thought it was the BEST way

[Dichotomy Girl]

Some of Peoples' Hopes and Fears for my future:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

It was you Paul had in mind when writing Hebrews 10:25 I just hope you do not fulfil Heb.10:26-29 When one fails to assemble they open themselves up to fatal error.

Originally Posted by H2H

Mich, I must view your departure with question. How can you say withdrawal to nothing is the answer to improper doctrines or wrongful interpretation? Find a church - a group of beleivers - and when you do there will likely be other issues you can again withdraw over. ALL organizations have error ALL. Because you are removing yourself to a "me and Jesus" mentality I must question your motives.

Meanwhile, I will pray that God will place a hunger for Him in your heart.


In Jesus, H2H

Originally Posted by Sherri

Mich, Mich, Mich......I do love you for your transparency!! You are a breath of fresh air on here many times when I need a good laugh. I think you're one of the most sincere people that I know and that you have a heart after God, like David. Just keep chasing Him (God, not David). He will lead and guide you into all truth.

You have to have passion; that's what it's all about. God is so big and so awesome, we cannot begin to understand Him. But He is ultimately always good and He is faithful; He will keep you. The Word does say to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Read the Word and let it sink into your Spirit; He will speak to you through it.

I love you. If you ever need to talk, PM me. Meanwhile, I'll be praying!

Originally Posted by SISTER Murphy

I can assure you, there is far more danger in thinking the voice of the flesh (self, the carnal nature we are born with) is the voice of God than there is in thinking the voice of some 'controlling pastor', as you put it, is God's voice.

Big revelation, friend: God has already revealed Himself in His Word, and He chooses to feed and lead His people through pastors after His own heart.

Originally Posted by CC1

Michlow,

I appreciate your thread. My concern is a practical one from 48 years of observation.

Far too often those that become untethered from their foundations blow away in the wind and never seem to land on solid ground again.

As you know I share some of the same concerns you do for the UPC and old time Oneness Pentecost.

However I have always kept hold of what I consider my spiritual foundation and that is confidence in God, the work of Calvary, etc, etc. On a more practical level what I have kept hold of in my foundation is what I consider committment and faithfulness to the house and word of God.

Too many times I see folks who either get or seek a "better understanding" of things just end up unplugged from any assembly of believers. They are either all alone (a Coopite) or manage to find a handful of other malcontents who share concerns or views with them.

All I am saying is beware. Make an honest re-evaluation often to see if you are out in the ether living by the words of that famous song "Me and Jesus got our own thing goin' on" or if you are willing to find a pastor and assembly you can submit yourself to for the important ministry to you spoken of in the Epistles.

[KeptByTheWord]

Interesting! Staying tuned...

[Dichotomy Girl]

A few more Posts from the Old Thread (I figured I'd save people from paging through 62 pages of tangents...etc.)

Originally Posted by Malvaro

In light of some recent threads, please specify if you consider yourself "ex-Pentecostal" or not....
I am only referencing the Apostolic doctrine, not standards or anything else UPC-related....

YES or NO

Originally Posted by Michlow

Hmmm...trying to pin me down, huh?

No, I do not consider myself "ex-pentecostal". To me, the pentecostal label has to do with the baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues, and as I received such baptism, and regularly speak in tongues, I therefore do consider myself to still be pentecostal.

However, I think that most likely is not the exact answer you are looking for. I am guessing you want to know if I am still PAJC? A 3-Stepper? Oneness?

My View of the Godhead has not changed. I believe in One God. His name is Jesus. Do I believe that one must repent, be baptized by full immersion in the Name of Jesus Christ (verbally spoken over the one being baptized) and then one must receive the Baptism of the Holy Ghost (with the intial evidence of speaking in other tongues as the spirit gives the utterance) in order to be saved? Is this the answer you are looking for?

The simple answer is that I don't know. I still believe that people SHOULD do those things. I still believe that those are the BEST ways to go about it. Is baptism in the titles acceptable to God? Can one be filled with the Holy Ghost, without speaking in tongues? Are people saved at repentence? These are questions for others that are smarter than I am.

Originally Posted by SDG

I would say ... that it's worrisome if she has not found a place to congregate ... however she has also admitted to being Spirit-filled and studying God's Word like never before .... we cannot discount the power of the Holy Ghost in her life ... simply because she's not UPC anymore

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Daniel, her not being UPC anymore is the absolute least of my concerns.

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

No, a peek into Michelle's words and her own report of her actions.

I love Michelle in the Lord, and have prayed for her often and will continue to.

But when people withdraw and isolate themselves from the influences that God has ordained, in clear opposition to the Scripture, it is what it is.

[Monterrey]

Just curious,

Why did you use a ying/yang for your symbol?

Just wondering.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Just curious,

Why did you use a ying/yang for your symbol?

Just wondering.

I guess I always felt that it kind of went with the Name Dichotomy Girl. As the Yin/Yang kind of represents two mutually exclusive things. (The symbol holds no personal spiritual or philosophical meaning for me)

[Dichotomy Girl]

NOW
(5 Years and 344 days later)
05/22/13

Name: Dichotomy Girl
Age: 38
Relationship Status: Happily married to Josh
Children: A daughter, Avery, who will be 2 on 6/12. The best surprise of my life!
Spirituality: It's Complicated!

A little bit of a timeline:

6/12/2007: Posted that I left the UPC
8/15/2008: Matthew and I separated
10/31/2008: Divorce was Final
4/18/2010: First Date with Josh, an atheist.
9/2010: Josh and I started "shacking up"
11/1/2010: Found out that after over 12 years of infertility I was (accidentally)8 weeks pregnant.
11/11/2010: Quickie marriage at the court house so that I could take advantage of Josh's awesome medical insurance.
6/12/2011: Avery was born, perfect in every way.
5/22/2012: Enjoying life and my family.

But there is so much between the lines of that timeline! I guess it's harder than I thought to quickly summarize everything that's happened to you in 6 years. Though I bet some preachers could do it pretty fast: "She started questioning standards, then came the doctrine, then she left church completely. It wasn't too much later that she got divorced, dated and then shacked up with an Atheist, and got pregnant out of wedlock!" (i'm not sure at this point if then marrying the Atheist would be considered a bigger sin!).

So on the one hand, I can say that the dire predictions were probably a bit understated, I think they figured that I'd just go charismatic, maybe get a few piercings and a tattoo.

I suppose most would think my life something to repent of, or to feel shame for. And though I have many regrets in life, my husband and daughter are not one of them. I have learned that marriage (though it can still be hard at times) can be a wonderful, awesome thing, and how much a difference it makes when you love each other!

I think I've learned true humility and sacrifice. Oh, I sacrificed tons of stuff in my first marriage, I was quite the martyr, but I didn't do it for my ex-husband who I resented and despised, I did it out of a sense of duty, or because I felt it was an expectation of God. And my daughter, she was the answer to a prayer I hadn't even enough faith to pray for. I'd often lamented the fact that I would never have children, but I'd given up that dream many years before.

I guess I'll break the spiritual part into another post.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Before I left the UPC, I had a lot of anger and hurt over the things that I had experienced. I wasn't really made at any individual people, I just viewed them as products of their environment. But I was really very angry at God. I had come to view him as a cruel and capricious bully that was enjoyed stepping on us for sport. I got to the point where I believed that either God was this horrible person that I'd come to believe, or I had no earthly idea who He actually was. But I didn't really know how to fix it.

I'm not sure I ever shared this story, but I spent several years hemming and hawing trying wanting to leave but afraid, thinking I should, then becoming convinced that I shouldn't, but all the time yearning for something that was missing.

My last time in a UPC service (before leaving) was actually not even at my home church. I was back in Wisconsin visiting, and attended a church where I had several friends. The Late Jack Yonts was preaching, and his sermons was on the story in the Gospels about the sick man that they lower through the roof to get to Jesus? And I admit, I tuned out of the service as Bro. Yonts was talking about bringing your friends to church, and I felt like God spoke to me, and told me, that I was like that paralyzed man, that I had been trying so hard, desperately to get to Him, but that my way was being blocked by the "Scribes and Pharisees". And I felt like He told me that if I wanted to get to Him, that I was going to have to take an unorthodox route.

I had a lot of fear at first, stepping out into the unknown, and feeling very untethered. In the beginning I prayed this prayer a lot.

Merton’s Prayer

My Lord God, I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me, I cannot know for certain where it will end. Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so. But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road, though I may know nothing about it. Therefore I will trust you always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death. I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone. (Thoughts in Solitude, Thomas Merton, 81)

But I was still so angry, that it was really hard to ever move forward. I would try to read the bible, or pray, or talk to other Christians, and I found it nearly impossible to consider any spiritual matters without them going through the filter of the past.

Ultimately, I found that when it came to God/Spiritual matters I was like this huge wound, and the more I poked at it, the less it healed. So for a few years, 2009 and into the early part of 2012, I avoided anything that had to do with Christianity. I didn't open a Bible, I didn't listen to Christian music, I didn't attend a church ,or listen to any kind of preaching, or pray (in anything but an extremely generic "Oh God don't let me be late" kind of way).

I'm not saying I recommend that method for those who have had very negative experiences, in fact it might be a horrible idea, and I'm not even saying it's what God had in mind or wanted for me. But regardless, it worked. Sometime in 2012, I realized that I could hear scriptures, or music, and no long have any of those PTSD-esque trigger responses. That I no longer see through that angry and hurt filter. I'm not bitter, I'm not angry. I'm actually kind of neutral.

So when it comes to Apostolic Doctrine (or Christian Doctrine for that matter), so I still believe any of it?

Oneness: I do kind of think this one is semantics. However, because my only experience in Christianity has been in the UPC, and because I had some very negative feelings towards God at one time, for me it all comes down to Jesus. Jesus being God is pretty much the only thing that I never questioned, where my faith never wavered. When Paul sounds like a Sexist, and the God of the OT is being all genocidal, I just focus on the Character of Jesus. (I really like the verse about Him being the image of the Invisible God)

Baptism: I think it's a symbol, currently I have no feelings mode or formula.

Spirit Baptism & Tongues: This is a big one that people question, that yes, there were definitely times that I've questioned it. I think I posted a thread last year after reading some article about how scientists believe that it is learned behavior, and how that really upset me. But for me, it ultimately comes down to faith, which I believe is a choice. I know that something inside me changed when I got the Holy Ghost. I did speak in tongues. I still speak in tongues...even during the healing years. But I don't claim to understand it. (I confess, I don't love the fact that my husband thinks I'm a little bit crazy.)

The Bible: This part I think will be the most upsetting for a lot of people here. This is one of the areas that I struggled with the most. I had a lot of problems thinking of the Bible as the AUTHORITATIVE WORD OF GOD, and the way that most conservative Christians use it as a rule book or instruction manual. I couldn't accept it as that, but I couldn't dismiss it either. So I was kind of at an impasse for many years. Currently, I view it as a collection of writings that show mankind's search for a relationship with God. As such I do not think it inerrant, and I do find it somewhat mutable. (i.e. we don't practice slavery even though the Bible doesn't condemn the practice)

I guess, that I believe that the purpose of the Bible is to encourage us to seek Jesus, to lead us into relationship with Him through the infilling of His Spirit. I think that is what God intended to be our teacher, Guide, and Comforter.

Repentance, Salvation, Hell, Etc.: My thoughts on these are works in progress, as are many other things, because for me it has become about more How to live with the Questions, then it is to needing to know the answers. But I believe that there will be a reckoning and some kind of judgment, but I don't believe that it will involve conscious eternal torment. Which means I don't really focus on repentance and salvation, but more on relationship.

And Standards aren't even on my radar anymore.

[RandyWayne]

Before I left the UPC, I had a lot of anger and hurt over the things that I had experienced. I wasn't really made at any individual people, I just viewed them as products of their environment. But I was really very angry at God. I had come to view him as a cruel and capricious bully that was enjoyed stepping on us for sport. I got to the point where I believed that either God was this horrible person that I'd come to believe, or I had no earthly idea who He actually was. But I didn't really know how to fix it.

What is funny is that my experience is nearly, if not completely, 180 degrees different from yours in that I left the UPC with NO anger toward God Himself. Where my anger did lie, was with the people and more importantly the system. To this day, I despise the pastor-centric form of church where the "man of gawd!" is the ring leader and all his minions play the part of mind numb robots. That doesn't mean I despise pastors as long as they realize where their authority ends and if/when they don't know where it ends, I've also unfortunately realized that most people are too ignorant to understand where it ends either and will blindly follow him, especially once the horror stories start flowing from the pulpit about someone who questioned the "man of gawd!" and was promptly struck down in some manner.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

What is funny is that my experience is nearly, if not completely, 180 degrees different from yours in that I left the UPC with NO anger toward God Himself. Where my anger did lie, was with the people and more importantly the system. To this day, I despise the pastor-centric form of church where the "man of gawd!" is the ring leader and all his minions play the part of mind numb robots. That doesn't mean I despise pastors as long as they realize where their authority ends and if/when they don't know where it ends, I've also unfortunately realized that most people are too ignorant to understand where it ends either and will blindly follow him, especially once the horror stories start flowing from the pulpit about someone who questioned the "man of gawd!" and was promptly struck down in some manner.

Well, notice that even though I have no bitterness or anger towards people, I am not attending a church (well, at all), but I don't think that I would thrive in that kind of environment either. I fully confess, I do not like being told what to do! (But I am open minded, so if you discuss it rationally with me, I may be persuaded).

In fact, my husband and I joke. I used to consider myself a Libertarian when I was more conservative, because I don't like the government telling me what to do. Now I say that I'm a Narcissistic Anarchist, because I don't want anyone telling me what to do, (But I want to tell everyone else what to do), at which point he tells me...that actually makes me a "Fascist" and I say "You have your labels...I have mine...."