Guns: An Important Discussion

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Oh yeah... That's why Peter had a sword because it was just a story. Two swords is enough for self defense. You will not start a war with them but you will be able to defend yourself. Yeah... Jesus was just telling them a parable about swords and violent persecution... Give me a break. Next you will tell us Jesus told Peter to throw his sword away instead of sheathing it for now. I guess they were letter openers right? Give me a break.

It should also be noted that swords were typically carried by travelers not only to defend from robbers, but to defend from wild beasts. And Christ's statement does imply the element of the disciples being sent forth to spread the Gospel...

Luke 22:35-36 (ESV)
35 And he said to them, “When I sent you out with no moneybag or knapsack or sandals, did you lack anything?” They said, “Nothing.” 36 He said to them, “But now let the one who has a moneybag take it, and likewise a knapsack. And let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one.

So... according to you, Christians aren't to use lethal force to defend themselves from persecution. However, the context is being sent to spread the Word of God. On their last missionary trip... they were sent without moneybag or knapsack, sandals or sword. Jesus then asks if they lacked anything. And they said, no. However, Jesus is now saying, their next trip will not be so comfortable. Now, they should consider taking money and food for travel. And anyone with a cloak should consider buying a sword. So... why would the disciples be admonished to take swords on a missionary journey; especially when we aren't supposed to spread the Gospel with the Bible in one hand and a sword in the other??? A sword is valuable for a traveler. Agan, a traveler could use the sword to defend from a robber or attack... but we never see a born again believer doing this. Instead... born again believers never harm anyone. Most likely the advice to buy a sword was to protect from beasts while traveling.

He was the father of the faithful. So you are saying he did not trust God? Bologna. My Bible tells me all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for instruction in righteousness. Last time I checked the OT was still scripture.

Yes, all Scripture is given by inspiration of God adn is profitable for instruction in righteousness. However, I can't demand that you not eat ham because the Law lists it as unclean. Why? Different covenantal dispensation. Abraham was Father of the Faithful. And yes, his "FAITH" illustrates the kind of faith we are to have. However, in Abraham's covenantal dispensation, his "position" was a "patriarch". Much like a tribal chief. That required the use of force and allowed for him to wage war. While we can take a lesson from Abraham's faith... not every one of his actions are agreeable with the New Covenant.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for instruction in righteousness. Last time I checked the OT was still scripture. Self defense is a basic human right. Interesting that a "Libertarian" does not see this.

Oh, I do see this. I wouldn't criminalize gun owners or prosecute someone for murder if they were just defending themselves. There is a difference between "LAW" and living for Jesus. You see... the law allows anyone to own a gun and allows them to defend themselves with it. I support that. The law should be like that. However... Christ calls us to a higher ethic than both the OT law or the 2nd Amendment. I'd not abolish the Second Amendment. I'd not make it illegal to protect yourself. But... I'd admonish the Christian to obey Christ. Turn the other cheek. Do not render evil for evil. An eye for an eye only leaves both parties blind. Do not resist violently. Trust God.

I don't believe I said it was explicitly stated. However, it is implicit. The man is the guardian of the home, the provider. What good is providential care when there is no defense of that care? You can stand and pray while someone destroys your home or does unimaginable things to your family. That is your prerogative. Mine is to defend my family and as I see it it is part of providing for my family - my responsibility as a man.

Don't you trust God to protect your family? And should God allow you to face such a dark hour... don't you think God has a purpose???

Can you give me ONE example from Scripture showing a born again believer using lethal force for self defense???

Also I see where Cornelius was commanded to depart the army right before Peter baptized him... NOT!
Gotta run...

No... soldiers who became Christians were not asked to depart from the army. However, history shows that Christian soldiers in the Roman army refused to shed blood. Thus they disobeyed only orders that conflicted with the Christian ethic. And for this reason, disobeying the emperor was considered treason. When they refused to kill... they were tried for treason and executed.

Please understand... "defense of self and family" need not be lethal force. There are ways to defend one's self and/or family that do not include lethal force. So I don't advocate standing by and just watching someone harm your family.

Some non-lethal options might include the following...

*divine intervention - Depending on God to deliver miraculously.
*escape - Fleeing from the source of danger.
*ruse - Out smarting or using trickery to escape or to be released without injury.
*nonlethal force - Using non-lethal physical force to subdue an attacker to prevent injury to others including the attacker themselves.
*moral disarming - Speaking to the attacker with an appeal to conscience securing safety and release.
*martyrdom - Dying with the word of Jesus on your lips without inflicting injury or harm to the attacker.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well on most points so far I agree more with your view. A personal question? Are you referring to Pastor Shearer? I know he was a Marine.

Yes. He hunted and had no problem with people owning guns. However, he seemed very uneasy when conversation progressed into the "I'd blow them away!" phase. And when I was talking about joining the military... he admonished me not to. I did anyways. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I fear that there are many believers having never seen brute violence will fall when it comes. Not that violence is good it is the most evil of all emotions. What I mean is lots of people I have met over the years just think "Hey it will all work out in the end".
Well maybe not if our hearts are not fully prepared by living a daily life of denying self for the love and will of Jesus to flow.

God took his people in the OT a long way to the promised land because he knew that if the people saw war "not being prepared" they would faint and go back to Egypt. Exodus 13:17.
He first allowed other trials to get them stronger before facing the Philistines in the savage encounter of war.

It would certainly be easier if God had instructed us to rise up, arm ourselves and physically fight our enemies. One might still lose but they would at least feel they were more "in control".

Now there is one verse I know of that I stand on as far as the possibility of using force in a given situation.

17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written , Vengeance is mine; I will repay , saith the Lord.20Therefore if thine enemy hunger , feed him; if he thirst , give him drink : for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.21Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Rom. 12:17-21

Paul says IF ITS POSSIBLE live in peace with everyone. There may be situations I cannot live in peace with someone. We see vengeance is completely ruled out. Wonder if there are varying levels of ones enemies? At least generally speaking we are told to do them good.

I agree with Romans 12:17-21. If at all possible, I believe a Christian should refuse to use lethal force against a threat. However, if a Christian does use lethal force in the heat of the moment... they shouldn't be prosecuted. Spiritually they should draw close to the Lord because they are going to deal with all the emotions that come along with taking a human life. It's not as easy as some suppose. They will need to seek forgiveness and grace.

[Aquila]

I wanted to add this to the discussion:

Bible Pacifism
Christian Pacifism is the Scriptural Position
by Jim Foxvog
http://www.plowcreek.org/bible_pacifism.htm

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Aquila

A false dichotomy implying situational ethics.

Bologna. There is a world of difference between religious persecution and someone breaking and entering.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Bologna. There is a world of difference between religious persecution and someone breaking and entering.

There isn't a world of difference between obedience and disobedience. In my opinion, and I could be wrong, the idea of a difference sounds like situational ethics. We're to do harm to no man, turn the other cheek, not fear those who can kill the body, never render evil for evil, or even resist evil... unless it's a doped up kid breaking into our house at 2am.

Doesn't make much sense to me.

Please understand, I dont' advocate sitting idily by and doing nothing if one's family is in danger. If at all possible I believe that it is perfectly ethical for a Christian to employ non-lethal measures to protect self and family. It seems like when we talk self-defense... we instantly think of guns and blowing somebody away. Maybe that's a symptom of our culture. But a Christian can ethically resort to the following:

*divine intervention - Depending on God to deliver miraculously.
*escape - Fleeing from the source of danger.
*ruse - Out smarting or using trickery to escape or to be released without injury.
*nonlethal force - Using non-lethal physical force to subdue an attacker to prevent injury to others including the attacker themselves.
*moral disarming - Speaking to the attacker with an appeal to conscience securing safety and release.
*martyrdom - Dying with the word of Jesus on your lips without inflicting injury or harm to the attacker.

And on the flip side of the subject... I'd not criminalize guns. I believe in gun rights. In addition, I'd not agree with prosecuting someone who did use lethal force to protect their family. One has the right to use lethal force. But to me... as a Christian... I believe we should strive for a higher, more Christlike, ethic.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Either you trust the Lord with the fate of yourself and your family... or you don't.

It's not about persecution vs. criminal act. It's about obedience to Jesus Christ.

I don't live in the best neighborhood. My girlfriend's brother was beat down and robbed two blocks down. My car was stolen last April. I've anointed my doors and windows and prayed over those I love. Now... it's really about me preparing for whatever the Lord would have happen to me. Like a Kamakazi... my death is gain. I've been marked by my maker a peculiar display. The high and lofty... they see me as weak... 'cause I wont live and die... for the power they seek.

Bologna. I guess Abraham was the father of the faithless... He took his trained servants with him to recapture his family. Abraham trusted God and walked with God but there came a time when Abraham had to use his "trained servants" to protect his family. It never ceases to amaze me that people will acknowledge the need to help get the "ox out of the ditch" but stand idly by when a human animal attacks someone else. Here is the product of this ungodly devotion to a do nothing doctrine.
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/301057.../#.UOceV-Tho7o

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=6690,945244

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

And the list goes on and on. All I can say is I am glad you are not my neighbor or family member. The old saying all that evil needs to prosper is for good people to do nothing is the mantra of the day for some - do nothing and watch evil prosper. What's worse is the do nothing spirit that allows the loved one's to pay the price then accuse other's of not trusting God.

Abraham apparently did not trust God.
Nehemiah did not trust God.
David did not trust God.
Peter did not trust God.
And the list goes on.

Either you trust the Lord or you don't? How silly and the implications are completely off base. I trust God to feed and cloth me and my family but I still get out of bed every morning and go to work. I trust God will protect my family and it may be that I am the instrument of that protection.

Persecution vs criminal acts:
It is exactly the difference between a criminal act and religious persecution. To allow a murderer or robber to rape and pillage your family while the "man" stands idly by is disgusting and worse to hide the cowardice behind the mantra of "obedience to Christ" is unconscionable. Please tell me where Christ commanded men to become effeminate and stand by watching their families be murdered and raped?

To say your death is like a Kamakazi is absurd - simply more hyperbole. The brother of the girlfriend that was beaten and robbed I guess was God's will... The car being stolen was God's will... God forbid but should your loved one's be murdered or raped that will be God's will as well after all pacifism in your books is "obedience to Christ". Like I said I am glad you are not my neighbor or family member.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I remember a television show called Little House On the Prairie. What always struck me was how Michael Landon's character was a Christian... and a pacifist. Be they bandits or authorities... he never used lethal force that I can remember. I seem to remember him always refusing weapons... and even showing displeasure with even pointing a weapon at another human being.

Well now we know where your "Christianity" comes from... Hollywood...

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Pliny

To allow a murderer or robber to rape and pillage your family while the "man" stands idly by is disgusting and worse to hide the cowardice behind the mantra of "obedience to Christ" is unconscionable. Please tell me where Christ commanded men to become effeminate and stand by watching their families be murdered and raped?

Hey, hey, hey, relax Tex. Put down yer guns. lol I'm not saying that you're automatically wrong. I'm sharing a different opinion.

Also...

NO ONE said one should just idily stand by and allow harm to come to themselves or their families if they have opportunity to prevent said harm. I even listed methods a Christian could employ if facing a dangerous situation. Perhaps I could have included the use of a "Taser". lol

As I discovered, you'd be amazed at how many women tell their husbands not to buy firearms and that they'd be willing to suffer at the hands of an intruder than to see the intruder's life taken.

Several questions I was asked were:

Do you believe REALLY in Heaven?
Do you believe REALLY in Hell?
Are you ready to die and go to Heaven?
Is the intruder ready to die and go to Heaven?
What action would serve the greatest good relating to the lost soul's eternity?

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's what's funny... Christians in various parts of the world like India, some Middle Eastern countries... China... etc. don't believe in using lethal force at all. Not even against an attacker or robber. Facing persecution... obedience to them is at a premium. But in our comfortable little America we don't face REAL persecution like they do. So we've become fat and sassy... justifying the use of lethal force against "criminals" as though because it's a criminal we don't have to obey Jesus.

A REAL Christian understands the every day cost of Christianity. And being a Christian might mean that you'll die with a witness on your lips at the hands of a man holding you at gun point for your wallet outside a convenience store.

Truth be told... my first pastor served as a Marine. And interestingly enough... he was also against Christians using lethal force in any circumstance. I was even admonished NOT to joint the military when I chose to sign up. He'd put it this way... "Either you believe in God or you don't. Don't tell me you believe in God and not trust Him with your fate, come what may."

And how did you come by this information? Have you spoke to all those "Christians" in those parts of the world? Where is the data to back up the claim? Just saying something does not make it so, unless to live in Washington DC and work for the govt.

So again we see the arrogance of stating "REAL" Christians must believe your way or they are not "REAL" Christians. How absurd. If a man points a gun at me in an attempt to rob me or harm my family it will b e a bad day for that individual. I will be happy to witness to him during prison ministry. All I see is hyperbole and zero facts to back up the claims unless of course a Hollywood program is to be used as "facts".

Is the use of "I was in the Army" or my first pastor was "Marine" supposed to mean something? I appreciate the service you and others have made but that has no bearing on the current discussion. Most Pastor's do admonish members not to join because you are often placed in situations that are not in keeping with good moral behavior such as the barracks life style. The whole "wine, women. and song" mantra of going out to either get drunk and find a girl or get drunk and find a fight. Many cannot handle the military life and remain Christian.

Don't tell me your a man and sit back and watch you family be raped and murdered. You can blame it on God if you want to but I will stop the intruder if I can. I will gladly lay down my life to protect my family in their defense - there is no greater love than this, to lay down your life for your family.