Quote:
Originally Posted by tv1a
You logic is faulty on many levels. Its called the 80/20 rule. You make it sound like it is all or nothing. Do you know the difference between discipleship with evangelism?
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I wish you would quit condescending me.
Maybe my mistake in discussing this with you is that I am assuming you are a pastor. Are you? Because that will make a big difference in my thoughts. If you are, then you cannot neglect 80% of the people in your church system. If you are not, then I can see you working with a few people to teach. But heavens! If you teach people the way you post on these forums, I honestly don't know how much good you are doing. I say this with a honest heart and without malice on my part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tv1a
Jesus said many are called but few are chosen. Christ said the fields are ready but the workers are few. The Bible is full of examples of the few conquoring the many.
No one is dismissing the 80 percent. It's not an either or proposition. Spending 80% of your time with the 20% who will maximize the results still leaves you 20% of your time to work with the 80%.
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Are Christians supposed to be "conquering" people? That concept would be 'nicolaitan' principles or deeds, which Christ said He hates. I think I would rephrase that if I were you.
But...you don't do it...do you? That is... spend the other 20% of your time with the 80% of the people. If you are a pastor, that is very little time for the bulk amount of people.
How many of your hypothetical 20% will go out and evangelize? No doubt there will be a few. But my experience with the few who spends an extraordinary time with the pastor tells me that most of them likely consider themselves to be in the 'inner circle', the 'elite' of the church, and form their own clique that
shuts everybody else out. I haven't seen a church yet that does not do this. Perhaps there are, but not in my region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tv1a
The religious application of 80/20 is to disciple the few to reach the masses. Anyone left behind is left because they don't want to be involved.
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That is not true and you know it..you just won't admit it.
Reality is, there are very few people who actually commit themselves to reach the masses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tv1a
Another Biblical principle indirectly supporting 80/20 is if one puts 1,000 to flight, 2 puts 10,000 to flight. Principle remains few can impact many.
Another key point you miss in the equation is 80/20 is a percentage. That means the real numbers varies. Easy math. 20% of 10 is 2, of 100 is 20, of 1,000 is 200. The disciples were a clique. Peter, James, and John were too busy praying, studying and preaching to take care of the widows. The found 12 men. One was Stephen, the other Phillip. One had an impact on Paul. The other impacted Samaria and Ethiopia.
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More condescending on your part towards me. I did not miss that percentages vary in any given situation. I thought that would be a slam dunk knowledge given for the reader so that nobody had to explain. I am a medical professional who dealt with ratios and percentages when giving medications. So please do not underestimate my intelligence. Keep in the back of your mind that I know many of these things and do not want to take up space making long posts. If people do not know, they usually ask for clarification.
However, back to the topic...
If this were true today, then why aren't our cities busting at the seams, overflowing with pentecostal churches? Why aren't the headquarters doing seminars for outreach ministry? Why aren't groups of people with 20% teaching them growing and dividing and taking out of their numbers another 20 % to teach and grow another group of people? I've been a member of 2 churches and attended a third OP church and virtually NONE of them had an outreach program and resented anybody who brought up the subject.
I'm going to tell you why. It's because when they get enough people..someone decides they want to pastor and starts a church with their ordinances, laws and bylaws and they want their church to grow to mega size. They don't want people to leave, not even 20% to go out and teach in the inner cities, the highways and the byways and have another fellowship starting, dividing and developing...constantly splitting and reaching out, growing...dividing again, reaching out...growing... you get the picture.
You are going by the actions of the Apostles that happened over 2000 years ago...even how the Apostles set up the church system back then, does not even remotely resemble what the organized church system has today. Today's system is...well...just messed up when compared to the early church.
As for the widows...they were Grecian widows who were neglected in the daily ministrations. The Apostles understood that they cannot do everything, thus delegated the more simpler matters to the brethren to take out 7 men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom to oversee these matters. I honestly doubt that they used 'scientific observations of a 80/20 principle' to ensure this to happen. They just used good common sense.
The Apostles were outreaching with the preaching of the gospel of Christ and delegated the more physically necessary matters to honest holy ghost filled men. We don't even get that type of outreach today. Everyone is shut up into their own little box. Many pastors do not want to delegate some of the responsibilities to other Holy Ghost men and women.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tv1a
The 80/20 principle can and often expands just like your tithe increases with a pay raise.
The Memphis Mess is only your problem if you make it your problem. TB is a big fish in a little fish tank. Sticking your nose in someone else's fish tak doesn't help the situation. Did the church in Galatia put the two sense in about the freak fest in Corinth. No they didn't. The unfortunate events in Memphis exposes the sharks disguised as sheep. I doubt half the people in your circle of influence know of TB. It's barely a ripple in world of christiandom. I'm certain your opinion of second hand info will do a lot to help the healing.
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Tva1, are you just another person who wants to use mathematical and scientific methods or gimmicks to "reach people" for Christ?
Christ don't need 80/20 principle of some man to reach the people. Neither does man who truly believes in the power of the blood. In fact, I think man uses whatever gimmick he can find to catch people's attention instead of just preaching the gospel of Christ and the Cross. You can blather all you want on the issue of 80/20 rule and I bet it will net you far less than your expectations, but the love of God and the blood of Christ from the cross will be God's only acceptable way to reach people. All of this nonsense came up because I am appalled at your use of derogatory terms for human beings that either fell upon hard times or play the system. Even those who play the system need educating how wrong it is to do so if they are able bodied. Godly influence in their life can convict a soul into themselves wanting to do better.
Now you are adding the rule to the tithe paying, which is just another OT law you and many others dug up so you can have a steady paycheck. Pitiful!
Go ahead and preach to your 20 percent and call other people derogatory names, like you have already done in this thread. Your posts indicate that you lack love for your fellow man. You talk about discipleship...but what does Christ say about true discipleship?
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
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John 13:35)
Good luck with your gimmicks because you are going to need them.
As far as Memphis is concerned, you do not know who the people in my circle are. If I were sticking my nose in the Memphis mess, I would be over there in that church system digging up dirt to tell. There is a big difference between doing that and posting my opinion, which I do have a right to do.
Why? Because I have a very close loved one who moved to Memphis and is looking for a OP church to visit and maybe regularly attend. It would be unacceptable for my loved one to walk into that "Memphis mess". So yes, it is my concern because I do not want my loved one walking into that type of unstable and unbiblical situation that might shape what my loved one views about oneness pentecostal churches.
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