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People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
__________________
People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
I like your idea!
First, I would like to apologize to SH and AYR if they believe that I was personally attacking them.
Thank you for your apology, I accept.
I don't think the term "Zionism" can be defined simply in one term. It is a complex issue and has been a source of controversy since it's inception.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76
Due to personal experiences, I am very sensitive to the term "Zionist".
These personal experiences have to do with dealing with many muslims over the years.
My experience has been that almost all of these use the term Zionist as a pejorative.
They also use the basic definition that SH used at the start of the thread.
Just wondering...did the muslims you had contact with ever explain why they feel this way? I would like to hear their viewpoint concerning why they felt this way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76
And then in the next breath they mutter that Hitler was right.
Hitler will never be right in what he done to not only the Jews, but to Christians and even his own countrymen...and all of humanity. So in my opinion, these muslims were misinformed and wrong for mentioning Hitler being right. One would be very surprised to learn the alleged accusations of who helped and funded Hitler. Here is a quick metasearch.
I am well aware that some Orthodox Jews regard the state of Israel as an abomination. Some of these Jews have actually appeared in meetings with Arabs to lamblast the state of Israel, together.
These Jews will do whatever they can to hurt the nation of Israel.
Insofar as attempting to debate this and go over all the iterations of Zionism, there is not enough space and not enough time here.
Perhaps one reason why is that the Orthodox Jews and the Arabs have coexisted for centuries until they saw that their homes were being destroyed by the new political movement to have a new Jewish Nation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76
Maybe we need to start by establishing what we mean by the term Zionist.
The definition that I pulled from Wikileaks, stands for me.
It is summerized as: " Zionism (Hebrew: ציונות, Tsiyonut) is a Jewish political movement that, in its broadest sense, has supported the self-determination of the Jewish people in a sovereign Jewish national homeland."
Who wants to offer another definition?
Like I said at the beginning of this post...I don't think that Zionism can be wholly defined in one definition. Wikipedia offers a nice sounding definition that has some semblance of truth to it, but they do not delve deeper into this situation.
Maybe we should go back to Genesis in the Bible to define who Israel is? Brief summary. God told Abraham that he would make a great nation out of his seed before Abraham even had any children. His first child came in his old age, through an Egyptian woman initiated by his wife Sarah, who laughed at the Angel's statement that she shall have a child in her old age. It was apparent that she did not believe the angels words. But God had other ideas which would prevail from which of Abraham's seed the Nation of Israel would be founded upon. This was to be from both Abraham and Sarah's seed.
God is the author of the Nation of Israel, their spiritual father, God, King, just ruler, and benefactor as long as they loved Him only and retained Him in their lives, their very being.
All sources I have read, not just from one website, (although I felt that one website did a good job of describing what Zionism is) suggest that zionism is a political movement, rather than a spiritual movement to bring a Jewish statehood into fruition.
I can see where the Orthodox Jews are reasoning that the current State of Israel is not founded on God bringing the jews back to their homeland because the state of Israel has a secular government instead of a spiritual government. They do not include our Creator in the running of their government, which would be a requirement from God in order to exist and to be a true, God originated nation of Israel. Our own government will not fund any religious movement because of our Constitution. In fact, more and more the Supreme Court is ruling that any religious displays in public buildings are unconstitutional and are to be removed. But we fund Israel. We send billions of dollars to Israel every year. Our government will fund a secular government, but not a spiritual one.
Last edited by AreYouReady?; 01-23-2012 at 10:57 AM.
A Jew Is Someone Who Practices Judaism,A Zionist Basically Is Someone Who Feels Like Because They Are Of The Seed Of Abraham,And They Are Wealthy They Should Rule The World. Now please I am not Anti-Semitic nor am I a Jew Hater,as God loves all people the same.
I pray all in Israel find salvation through Jesus Christ The Messiah.
if this is your definition of Zionism then I would say that it plays ZERO role in American Politics....
if by Zionism you mean the belief that Israel has a right to exist as a nation and a homeland for Jewish people with Jerusalem as its capital, then I would say a good bit. From the Jewish American Lobby, Jewish Americans in politics, Christians that hold this belief (i would be one of them) and from Secularists who also believe this.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
__________________
People who are always looking for fault,can find it easily all they have to do,is look into their mirror.
There they can find plenty of fault.
I don't think the term "Zionism" can be defined simply in one term. It is a complex issue and has been a source of controversy since it's inception.
Just wondering...did the muslims you had contact with ever explain why they feel this way? I would like to hear their viewpoint concerning why they felt this way.
Hitler will never be right in what he done to not only the Jews, but to Christians and even his own countrymen...and all of humanity. So in my opinion, these muslims were misinformed and wrong for mentioning Hitler being right. One would be very surprised to learn the alleged accusations of who helped and funded Hitler. Here is a quick metasearch.
Perhaps one reason why is that the Orthodox Jews and the Arabs have coexisted for centuries until they saw that their homes were being destroyed by the new political movement to have a new Jewish Nation.
Like I said at the beginning of this post...I don't think that Zionism can be wholly defined in one definition. Wikipedia offers a nice sounding definition that has some semblance of truth to it, but they do not delve deeper into this situation.
Maybe we should go back to Genesis in the Bible to define who Israel is? Brief summary. God told Abraham that he would make a great nation out of his seed before Abraham even had any children. His first child came in his old age, through an Egyptian woman initiated by his wife Sarah, who laughed at the Angel's statement that she shall have a child in her old age. It was apparent that she did not believe the angels words. But God had other ideas which would prevail from which of Abraham's seed the Nation of Israel would be founded upon. This was to be from both Abraham and Sarah's seed.
God is the author of the Nation of Israel, their spiritual father, God, King, just ruler, and benefactor as long as they loved Him only and retained Him in their lives, their very being.
All sources I have read, not just from one website, (although I felt that one website did a good job of describing what Zionism is) suggest that zionism is a political movement, rather than a spiritual movement to bring a Jewish statehood into fruition.
I can see where the Orthodox Jews are reasoning that the current State of Israel is not founded on God bringing the jews back to their homeland because the state of Israel has a secular government instead of a spiritual government. They do not include our Creator in the running of their government, which would be a requirement from God in order to exist and to be a true, God originated nation of Israel. Our own government will not fund any religious movement because of our Constitution. In fact, more and more the Supreme Court is ruling that any religious displays in public buildings are unconstitutional and are to be removed. But we fund Israel. We send billions of dollars to Israel every year. Our government will fund a secular government, but not a spiritual one.
I have worked with muslims from almost every part of the world. From palestinians to Eastern Europe, SE Asia, Arabs, Persians, Turks, Africans, basically all over. The closer their background to the state of Israel, the more they hate the Jews. And they all really do hate the Jews. They make no distinction between Jews, they hate them all. And one of their favorite "polite" curse words that they use is Zionist.
As to why? It varies.
Some of the palestinians that I worked with still had what they said were the keys to their houses that the Jews had taken.
However, when you asked them how the Jews had taken them, it was when they left the house before the Arabs attacked Israel. They went into the Arab countries so that they would not be caught in the war.
Now as to the definition of Zionism. Like most words, it means different things to different people. However, there has to be a true meaning, no matter how it has been twisted.
I really think you could not do better than Judas for a type for Zionists; although I have a somewhat different understanding of Judas than many, and certainly don't mean that as a put-down. Well-meaning wrong headedness.
I have worked with muslims from almost every part of the world. From palestinians to Eastern Europe, SE Asia, Arabs, Persians, Turks, Africans, basically all over. The closer their background to the state of Israel, the more they hate the Jews. And they all really do hate the Jews. They make no distinction between Jews, they hate them all. And one of their favorite "polite" curse words that they use is Zionist.
As to why? It varies.
Some of the palestinians that I worked with still had what they said were the keys to their houses that the Jews had taken.
However, when you asked them how the Jews had taken them, it was when they left the house before the Arabs attacked Israel. They went into the Arab countries so that they would not be caught in the war.
Now as to the definition of Zionism. Like most words, it means different things to different people. However, there has to be a true meaning, no matter how it has been twisted.
Then I guess one would have to ask is how the words zionist and jews got intertwined and mingled together. Some of the torah jew websites explain the timeline when Israel became a nation. It goes way back into the late 1800s.
It is awful that Jews who are of the natural branch of God's Blessings to Araham have to be lumped together with Jews who embrace the zionist political movement. From what many websites write, the political movement does not embrace the Creator. That is very disconcerting.
With this explanation, I can understand why you would hate the word "zionist" if this be the case in your experience. When I see the word "zionist" I don't see this as a slur against the jews because I understand them to be a political movement and not the natural branch.
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It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (Psalms 118:8)
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