A Question For MfBlume or others

[Digging4Truth]

Anyone is free to comment on this but this is the sort of thing I would expect Brother Blume to have some insight on.

I was reading the other day about covenants. In particular I was reading about when one had to pass between the pieces etc.

I was wondering...

Has anyone ever drawn any real correlation between that covenant practice and the fact that Jesus was crucified between the 2 thieves?

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Anyone is free to comment on this but this is the sort of thing I would expect Brother Blume to have some insight on.

I was reading the other day about covenants. In particular I was reading about when one had to pass between the pieces etc.

I was wondering...

Has anyone ever drawn any real correlation between that covenant practice and the fact that Jesus was crucified between the 2 thieves?

Don't see how it woukld relate.

[mfblume]

I never considered that before as corresponding to Christ between two thieves. VERY INTERESTING THOUGHT.

What I DID consider was how God came down in a burning lamp and CUT THE COVENANT, so to speak. People in ancient times would cut their hands and mingle the blood by shaking on it to seal a covenant. It was cutting the covenant. And the pillar of fire coming down which was analogous to the pillar of fire that led them out of Egypt.

Abraham called it a horror of darkness when He was told what would come to pass with his seed being in Egypt as slaves but would be delivered. So it definitely pointed to the Exodus. Then the "smoking furnace" occurred and the "burning lamp" passed between the sacrifices. It is interesting that in the Exodus, Egypt was called an IRON FURNACE from which God brought Israel out (Deut. 4:20).

Connecting that with your newfound thought, Jesus was obviously cutting the covenant by His shed blood on the cross, and He previously discussed HIS "EXODOS" (Greek for "decease") that He should accomplish at Jerusalem with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration.

I must consider your thought about the two thieves Christ died between some more! Thanks!

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I never considered that before as corresponding to Christ between two thieves. VERY INTERESTING THOUGHT.

What I DID consider was how God came down in a burning lamp and CUT THE COVENANT, so to speak. People in ancient times would cut their hands and mingle the blood by shaking on it to seal a covenant. It was cutting the covenant. And the pillar of fire coming down which was analogous to the pillar of fire that led them out of Egypt.

Abraham called it a horror of darkness when He was told what would come to pass with his seed being in Egypt as slaves but would be delivered. So it definitely pointed to the Exodus. Then the "smoking furnace" occurred and the "burning lamp" passed between the sacrifices. It is interesting that in the Exodus, Egypt was called an IRON FURNACE from which God brought Israel out (Deut. 4:20).

Connecting that with your newfound thought, Jesus was obviously cutting the covenant by His shed blood on the cross, and He previously discussed HIS "EXODOS" (Greek for "decease") that He should accomplish at Jerusalem with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration.

I must consider your thought about the two thieves Christ died between some more! Thanks!

And thanks for sharing all of the above. It gives one something to think on. I look forward to hearing your continued thoughts as God speaks to your heart.

[mfblume]

God, Himself came down and cut the covenant as the burning lamp. Sounds like that could connect to the fact Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by mfblume

God, Himself came down and cut the covenant as the burning lamp. Sounds like that could connect to the fact Jesus was God manifested in the flesh.

Indeed.

And Jesus is the light of the world

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Anyone is free to comment on this but this is the sort of thing I would expect Brother Blume to have some insight on.

I was reading the other day about covenants. In particular I was reading about when one had to pass between the pieces etc.

I was wondering...

Has anyone ever drawn any real correlation between that covenant practice and the fact that Jesus was crucified between the 2 thieves?

"Pass between the pieces" is often a reference to Abraham's experience in Genesis 15.

Jeremiah 34:18, is an interesting allusion to this practice as well.

The Hebrew word that is usually translated as "entered" in the context of "enter into a covenant" (see for example Deuteronomy 29:12) mean literally "to pass within" or "between." Here's R.A. Torrey's note on Deuteronomy 29:12:

"enter: Heb. pass, This is an allusion to the solemn ceremony used by several ancient nations, when they entered into a covenant with each other. The victims, slain as a sacrifice on this occasion, were divided, and and parts laid asunder. The contracting parties then passed between them, imprecating, as a curse on those who violated the sacred compact, that they might in like manner be cut asunder (Gen_15:10). St. Cyril, in his work against Julian, shows that passing between the divided parts of a victim was used also among the Chaldeans and other people."

I think the picture of Christ being "sacrificed between two thieves" may be an interesting study. At first, some might object by pointing out (and this was my initial thought) that Christ Himself was the sacrifice. Thus, those seeking to "enter" into covenant with Jesus Christ would have to pass between "the pieces" of Him. That doesn't really work.

However, if we were to see the two thieves as the representation of the penalty for sin - death. There are also obvious application to the "old covenant" - the Law, here. We see the horror and misery of the "covenant" that we all have "entered" into simply by being born in sin.

It is into this "covenant" - this place of hopelessness and despair that Jesus Christ "enters" and walks "between the pieces" of the old covenant with the promise of a new and better covenant.

Some have applied Psalm 50:1, to this same idea of "passing between the pieces."

"From the rising of the sun to the going down of thereof..." the Lord has "called the earth." It takes a bit of an imagination to see the applications here, in my opinion, but the idea does seem compelling.

[mfblume]

All of this happened with Abraham as a result of him asking God how would he know he would receive the inheritance God promised him.

Genesis 15:5-8 KJV And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. (6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. (7) And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it. (8) And he said, Lord GOD, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?

So the cutting of the animals and the fire coming down was all part of showing Abraham proof of his inheritance. In other words, GOD SWORE AN OATH AND CUT A COVENANT to establish the promise. He proved it by cutting a covenant.

Notice that fowls came down to devour the sacrifices while Abraham waited for the "proof".

Gene 15:11 And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.

Sounds like the SEED OF THE WORD that fowls came to devour as the devil seeks to steal the WORD out of our hearts when planted there by God, in the parable of the sower and the seed. In other words, the enemy was trying to steal away Abraham's WORD and promise from his heart before God could confirm it. But Abraham showed commitment to the covenant and did not allow the enemy to steal the WORD.

I can see God coming down Himself to MINGLE and UNITE himself to Abraham in a manner of speaking. The sacrifices Abraham gave represented Abraham. When a person offered a sacrifice for sins, that sacrifice stood as that person who should have died. The sacrifice stands in proxy of the offerer. So when God came down and cut the covenant, the picture is that God united with Abraham symbolically and they came into ONE by covenant.

Translate that to Jesus on the cross, and perhaps your thoughts about the two thieves shows something powerful! Phew! Notice the two thieves were both sinners and deserved death like us all. The soul who sins shall die. But one thief repented. Is that not like the whole world for whom Jesus died and united in sacrifice for? He died for all mankind and came into union by sacrifice for us all. Even for those who will not repent. But whether we repent, or do not, we all were like the thieves. And He cut the covenant between the thieves who stood for us. And we who repent will be in the kingdom by that death WITH Christ.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by pelathais

"Pass between the pieces" is often a reference to Abraham's experience in Genesis 15.

Jeremiah 34:18, is an interesting allusion to this practice as well.

The Hebrew word that is usually translated as "entered" in the context of "enter into a covenant" (see for example Deuteronomy 29:12) mean literally "to pass within" or "between." Here's R.A. Torrey's note on Deuteronomy 29:12:

"enter: Heb. pass, This is an allusion to the solemn ceremony used by several ancient nations, when they entered into a covenant with each other. The victims, slain as a sacrifice on this occasion, were divided, and and parts laid asunder. The contracting parties then passed between them, imprecating, as a curse on those who violated the sacred compact, that they might in like manner be cut asunder (Gen_15:10). St. Cyril, in his work against Julian, shows that passing between the divided parts of a victim was used also among the Chaldeans and other people."

I think the picture of Christ being "sacrificed between two thieves" may be an interesting study. At first, some might object by pointing out (and this was my initial thought) that Christ Himself was the sacrifice. Thus, those seeking to "enter" into covenant with Jesus Christ would have to pass between "the pieces" of Him. That doesn't really work.

However, if we were to see the two thieves as the representation of the penalty for sin - death. There are also obvious application to the "old covenant" - the Law, here. We see the horror and misery of the "covenant" that we all have "entered" into simply by being born in sin.

It is into this "covenant" - this place of hopelessness and despair that Jesus Christ "enters" and walks "between the pieces" of the old covenant with the promise of a new and better covenant.

Some have applied Psalm 50:1, to this same idea of "passing between the pieces."

"From the rising of the sun to the going down of thereof..." the Lord has "called the earth." It takes a bit of an imagination to see the applications here, in my opinion, but the idea does seem compelling.

Yes sir. One doesn't want to force these things but when we begin thinking on it sometimes pieces start coming together that we would never have considered otherwise.

[mfblume]

And the entire picture of the EXODUS with the pillar of fire, or burning lamp, was coming out of Egypt to the land of PROMISE that was given to Abraham. The people of Israel were Abraham's seed who would fulfil his inheritance.