John3 and Romans2: Part2

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

This is a reply to Esaias, from Part1. Quote from Esaias, "I think you have misinterpreted (or misapplied) this passage in Romans to unregenerate persons." THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I MEANT AND IS WHAT PAUL SAYS. Thank You. Paul speaks of those who do not know the law. They have to be unregenerate Gentiles BECAUSE they've never heard the Word. Therefore if applied to the unregenerate, if anyone does it is Paul. How can anyone think otherwise?

Paul contrasts 2 peoples in Ro2, Jews and Gentiles. The basic difference between them is one group has the Word of God, the other not. Paul attempts to show the Ro that the difference between these two people should be that the Word of God results in godly changes. v10,11 "but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God." God will treat Jew and Gentile alike by their actions not by their knowledge of the Word, because he does it without partiality by actions.

v12 "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law" If a person knows the Word they perish for sin. If a person doesn't know the Word they perish for sin. The important part isn't whether they had heard the Word or not but how they lived, as v13 says , it's not the hearers but doers who are justified. v14 talks about doing by nature. How do you understand doing by nature? Reasoning tells it has something to do with the conscience because it is later mentioned. A person's conscience can tell them to stay away from sin. In this case it is a Gentile, who hasn't ever heard the Word. Even though they've never heard the Word/Gospel, they live free from sin by listening to their conscience, because v14 "although not having the law, are a law to themselves". Though they don't have the Word their conscience has told them to live righteous (as if they had had the Word). Paul says in v15,16 that their conscience will bear witness on the day God judges by Jesus Christ. What will their conscience witness to, when they've listened to it to stay away from sin? (He writes all these words to Ro Christians and seems to include all NT people because he mentions the gospel) This tells me that there are some people in the times of the NT who haven't been given the chance to enter into Covenant by the New Birth because they haven't ever heard the Word which would given them the faith to obey the New Birth to enter the Covenant of Blood and Spirit. Will these people who obey their conscience be considered righteous? Paul seems to imply that they will be thought righteous because their conscience doesn't condemn them. Though they may be righteous they aren't born again because they've never had the chance to hear the Gospel. They are without either covenant or law and righteous.

Therefore, there will be some from NT times who are righteous, unbaptized and going to heaven.

Paul never says these are unregenerate people. You are reading that into the text. The discussion is about people who have the law (Jew) and people who do not have the law (Gentile). Members of both groups shall perish if they are sinners, regardless of whether they have the law or not (regardless of whether they are circumcised or not, regardless of whether they are members of the Sinaitic Covenant or not).

But the righteous are those who will not perish, again regardless of whether they are circumcised or not. The circumcised "covenanted" Jew who sins shall be put to shame by the uncircumcised "uncovenanted" Gentile who does righteousness. Therefore one's status UNDER THE OLD COVENANT IS IRRELEVANT, one's circumcision status doesn't matter.

The righteous Gentile is described by Paul as one who has the law of God written in the heart. He says that specifically. The Bible applies the writing of the law of God upon the heart as an effect of the New Covenant. Therefore these righteous but uncircumcised Gentiles Paul speaks of MUST OF NECESSITY be in the New Covenant, which in turn means they MUST OF NECESSITY be regenerated Christians.

You would have to show how and where the Bible describes unregenerated Gentiles who know not God but who nevertheless have "God's law written in the heart". And no, you cannot just point back to Romans 2 as your proof text because that is the text in question and you need to find SUPPORTING EVIDENCE of your interpretation.

Again, Paul doesn't call these Gentiles "unregenerate" nor does he say they do not know God. He says they are uncircumcised but have the law of God written in their heart, and therefore are counted by God as though they were circumcised, whereas the actually circumcised Jew who does not have God's law written in the heart and who therefore does evil shall be counted as if they were uncircumcised.

If someone has the law of God written in their heart, and if the writing of the law of God in the heart is the key element of the New Covenant when contrasted with the Old, then those who have the law of God written in their heart are members of the New Covenant. And therefore these Gentiles in romans 2 are not unregenerate heathens who do not know God, but are regenerate Christian Gentiles.