Well said, well written, and well-explained. Question: What form of Christianity would this be agreeable to?
Liberal forms. Those who follow Christ, who obey His commands, if not necessarily accept the literal account of His miracles and resurrection. And some who do accept them but don't believe miracles happen today -- cessationists.
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I think I'm willing to consider some of what you're saying, maybe even a lot, but I find it impossible to abandon certain experiences I've had. However, I'll hear someone talk about, with just as much vigor as I have, an experience they had and their story is completely looney. So I understand if my experiences, some of which I've shared with you, don't add up to you.
And I absolutely agree with your last paragraph and, in fact, it's biblical.
Here's the beauty of my proposed answer: you can still enjoy the occasional wonderful and strange and exceptional event! You could still attribute them to God's action, if you like, though I wouldn't recommend it. Rather, just accept that something wonderful has happened, and enjoy it, be thankful for it. Then keep living your life as if it were up to you to make it wonderful and fulfilling! And help others do the same. (And I know you do! )
Here's the "continued" part I mentioned:
There is danger in believing God will do miracles. Very real danger. An example of this is illustrated in Carrie Underwood's song, Jesus Take the Wheel. One could argue that she isn't really recommending the defensive driving technique of throwing your hands up and letting Jesus take over. But, if so, what is she advocating, really, in day-to-day living? What kind of real life situations truly benefit from letting go of control, and letting Jesus do things for you?
But that amazing mind can sometimes use a break. If we stop concentrating on some problem, just "forget" about it for a while, sometimes the answer will come to us. This works whether we think Jesus plunked the answer into our heads, or not. (But I don't recommend this method for skids on icy roads! )
Another example of the danger is when we depend entirely on God for healing from sickness, if the sickness is something that medical care could take alleviate or heal. Sure, medicine can't do everything, but it can do a lot. Putting faith in God alone isn't always fatal, but it happens. It's usually children that die, when parents refuse medical care. Sick adults are more likely to change their policy, when they get desperate enough.
One more danger in teaching that God does miracles, and this may be the most important one: when He doesn't actually perform a requested miracle, it causes many problems -- confusion, guilt, despair, depression. Sometime suicide. Very few believers will claim that God grants every request. Most will admit that it's actually the exception, not the rule. It's natural to wonder, why did they get their miracle and not me?
Believers like to talk about how good and loving and wonderful God is. Well, if you will look at the teaching and the reality, and put them together, you don't get a very flattering picture of God! What kind of loving God would sometimes step in for certain people, but usually just let His children suffer -- whether at the hands of a rapist, or from a virus, or an accident? And why does He do this when He could easily step in? A test?! Please. If you think God has to test people by letting them suffer incredible pain, to see if they'll keep their faith in Him, well, I don't know what to tell ya.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Liberal forms. Those who follow Christ, who obey His commands, if not necessarily accept the literal account of His miracles and resurrection. And some who do accept them but don't believe miracles happen today -- cessationists.
Here's the beauty of my proposed answer: you can still enjoy the occasional wonderful and strange and exceptional event! You could still attribute them to God's action, if you like, though I wouldn't recommend it. Rather, just accept that something wonderful has happened, and enjoy it, be thankful for it. Then keep living your life as if it were up to you to make it wonderful and fulfilling! And help others do the same. (And I know you do! )
Here's the "continued" part I mentioned:
There is danger in believing God will do miracles. Very real danger. An example of this is illustrated in Carrie Underwood's song, Jesus Take the Wheel. One could argue that she isn't really recommending the defensive driving technique of throwing your hands up and letting Jesus take over. But, if so, what is she advocating, really, in day-to-day living? What kind of real life situations truly benefit from letting go of control, and letting Jesus do things for you?
But that amazing mind can sometimes use a break. If we stop concentrating on some problem, just "forget" about it for a while, sometimes the answer will come to us. This works whether we think Jesus plunked the answer into our heads, or not. (But I don't recommend this method for skids on icy roads! )
Another example of the danger is when we depend entirely on God for healing from sickness, if the sickness is something that medical care could take alleviate or heal. Sure, medicine can't do everything, but it can do a lot. Putting faith in God alone isn't always fatal, but it happens. It's usually children that die, when parents refuse medical care. Sick adults are more likely to change their policy, when they get desperate enough.
One more danger in teaching that God does miracles, and this may be the most important one: when He doesn't actually perform a requested miracle, it causes many problems -- confusion, guilt, despair, depression. Sometime suicide. Very few believers will claim that God grants every request. Most will admit that it's actually the exception, not the rule. It's natural to wonder, why did they get their miracle and not me?
Believers like to talk about how good and loving and wonderful God is. Well, if you will look at the teaching and the reality, and put them together, you don't get a very flattering picture of God! What kind of loving God would sometimes step in for certain people, but usually just let His children suffer -- whether at the hands of a rapist, or from a virus, or an accident? And why does He do this when He could easily step in? A test?! Please. If you think God has to test people by letting them suffer incredible pain, to see if they'll keep their faith in Him, well, I don't know what to tell ya.
Timmy, I'm in tune with a major chunk of what you're saying. Hey, maybe you could be one of my board members!
I don't see "miracles", as in paraplegic's getting out of wheelchairs. And I can't say 100% for sure that I've seen, absolutely, a healing of any kind. But I'll admit, my thinking has been polluted by con-men faith healers who have no problem healing someone's bad back or knees but won't go near someone who's certifiably blind or in a wheelchair.
But I have experienced financial provision that's just flat-out inexplicable, in fact, I'm in the middle of it right now. I've made virtually nothing this year and I'm living at about the same level as '09 when I didn't miss a paycheck. I've absolutely seen what the bible would describe as a vision and that has happened several times, once, when it enabled me to avoid a physical attack from an angry congregant.
So I have a hard time accepting that God is removed and not involved. But I do see a disconnect between what I read that Jesus, and the apostles did, with miracles, and what I've seen in my lifetime. I've entertained a lot or explanations for that but I'm not sure I've seen a good one.
Jesus didn't heal every sick person wherever He was. He healed to glorify God, and show where His power came from. He also taught that the well didn't need doctors, but the sick did. I have experienced inexplicable things. Miracle or not, there are times I believe there are people God heals or recovers to show someone else His power. Not just the person He heals. I still however cannot answer the question of the thread.
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If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
Submission is hard for human beings, I think. Most of us want to be in control.
__________________
If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
Those who follow Christ, who obey His commands, if not necessarily accept the literal account of His miracles and resurrection. And some who do accept them but don't believe miracles happen today -- cessationists.
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