Gay Marriage: For or Against?

[Sabby]

My 22 year old godson asked me about this two years ago and asked me what I thought of gay marriage. I said I have three views. One is founded upon the Word of God, one is founded in the constitution and the other is my personal view.
Just to make it short, as a Christian that believes what the apostle Paul said about the subject, I believe that it is as much a sin as adultery, hatred, extortion, murder and the like. That said, sinners (homosexuals) that come to God must come to Him on His terms, which are clearly expressed in his Word. One of His terms is that we repent, stop, cease, abstain from those fleshly lusts which war against the soul! Nowhere in the NT is there an exception to the rule that a certain class of sinful behavior is morally acceptable. Gays and lesbians do not have the right to practice homosexual sex after conversion anymore than an extortioner, murderer or adulterer.
It is what it is. That is my personal and scriptural opinion.
The third opinion I have though has to do with the constitution of the U.S. There is such a thing as state's rights as well. Some states, like Mass, Hawaii, Iowa have legalized gay marriage. It is up to the citizens of those states to change those laws if they so choose (but first need to replace lawyers in black robes). Until the laws are changed, it remains legal for gays to marry. Some states have made it a part of their constitutions, the legal argument being made that consenting homosexual adults of majority (over 18) have a right to have a legal (marriage) contract giving them the same rights (opportunity) to marriage as heterosexuals. No matter how church folk try to spin it, there is a civil right component here. The question is not where does the state stand in this but where is the church?
The legal vs the church. Kind of ironic, isn't it?
JMO, but I get irritated when after having performed a marriage ceremony I still have to submit the marriage license to the county to make it "legit".
The state needs that information for taxation and census purposes. I submit that in the realm of marriage, the state has been corrupted and has removed their own moral authority.
I believe the day will come that Christians will be married in church, period. We are enjoined to obey the powers that be until that "power" demands a violation of our Christian conscience. And Christians ought not be guilted into thinking they do not have the right to be opposed to a morally sinful lifestye!
So (as a previous thread put it) let there BE church/state separation! Keep the state from interfering with the internal (marriage) affairs of Church. And keep the Church from making it a legal requirement for Americans to become Christians.


BTW, if your local church by-laws are not drawn up properly (and soon!) you may find yourselves in legal hot water. There won't be any "grandfathering" of any modifications once you have been slapped with a discrimination lawsuit. Protect yourself against the state.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by DAII

In the cultures of the Old Testament the laws of hospitality were something not to be taken lightly. Cities were usually enclosed and strangers who wandered in were not always welcomed. The story in Judges 19 describes an incident very similar to the Sodom and Gomorrah story. The Benjamites had grown cold and hard-hearted over the years and were not open to entertain a stranger in distress. They were called the "sons of Belial," children of the devil, ungovenable, untamable.

A wandering Levite, with his wife and servant, found himself stranded in the city, having to sleep in the dangerous street all night. However, there was one old man who had not lost all of his compassion and whom invited them in. The men of the city made a rude, disrespectful assult on the house of this man and demanded to see the people inside.

Judges 19:16-22:

And, behold, there came an old man from his work out of the field at even, which was also of mount Ephraim; and he sojourned in Gibeah: but the men of the place were Benjamites. And when he had lifted up his eyes, he saw a wayfaring man in the street of the city: and the old man said, Whither goest thou? and whence comest thou? And he said unto him, We are passing from Bethlehemjudah toward the side of mount Ephraim; from thence am I: and I went to Bethlehemjudah, but I am now going to the house of the LORD; and there is no man that receiveth me to house. Yet there is both straw and provender for our asses; and there is bread and wine also for me, and for thy handmaid, and for the young man which is with thy servants: there is no want of any thing. And the old man said, Peace be with thee; howsoever let all thy wants lie upon me; only lodge not in the street. So he brought him into his house, and gave provender unto the asses: and they washed their feet, and did eat and drink. Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
The old man offered his virgin daughter and his wife to the mob.

Judges 19:23-24:

And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly. Judges 19:24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
They took his wife and they "knew" her. The Hebrew word is "yadah," to acknowledge, to become aquainted with, to comprehend, to learn, to know. "Yadah" appears by itself no less than 943 times in a nonsexual connotation. The word is used ten places in the old testament to denote heterosexual intercourse. It is used five times inconjunction with "mishkabh" to mean the same thing. I repeat, "Yadah" appears by itself no less than 943 times in a nonsexual connotation.

Judges 19:25-28:

But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go. Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light. And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
The men assulted her, violently raped her (heterosexual rape) and left her for dead. Are we to conclude from this passage that heterosexual sex is a sin, an abomination to God? What a ludicrous thought. Of course not!

The issue isn't sex...the issue is violence with the phallus as the weapon of choice.

With these things in mind, let's look at Genesis 19. God sent two messengers to visit Lot, who welcomed them at the gate of the city. They went to Lot's house where they were treated as guests. Then the word got out that unwanted strangers were in town.

http://www.whosoever.org/v2i3/sodom.html

This is a cut and paste from a gay website. No wonder you whine and complain about hermeneutics.

Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 condemns male homosexual behaviour, but appears to refer only to temple prostitution. Even if it did refer to lesbian and gay relationships, it would not be applicable to Christians today, any more than the passages which surround these verses which form the Jewish Holiness Code.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by DAII

Our major question in this study is why was Sodom destroyed? If the Bible interprets itself, what does the Bible say about Sodom and Gomorrah? Let's look first at Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 16:49-50:

Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

What reasons does this passage give about Sodom? They were proud and arrogant. They had fulness of bread, in other words they were self-indulgent. Abundance of idleness - they were lazy. They assumed NO responsibility for poor people, they had no social conscience. They were haughty - "stuck-up" with an attitude of superiority, arrogant. They committed "abomination" before God ("to'ebah," something disgusting, especially idolatry.) Abomination included such things as eating shrimp or catfish, and having sex while the wife was having her period. A disobedient child was an abomination to God and was supposed to be stoned to death! The list goes on forever.

What was God's attitude?

Isaiah 1:9-10:

Except the LORD of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah. Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
God does not want "things"

Isaiah 1:11:

To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
God does not want you to bring special things to him...

Isaiah 1:13a:

Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me;
(Incense is an abomination??? Somebody better tell the Catholics!)

Isaiah 1:13b:

...the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isaiah 1:14:

Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Keeping special days or going to church makes God "weary." Actions alone, in place of loving God, are what are displeasing to God.

Jeremiah 23:10:

For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.
How do the Samaritans resemble the people of Sodom and Gomarrah? They are adulterers (specific sexuality immorality.) They have so little integrity that the country is falling apart. They have NO interest in following God, or trying to do His will.

Jeremiah 23:11:

For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.
The preachers and prophets have contempt towards God. Their speech and actions are Godless, secular.

Jeremiah 23:13:

And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.
The Samariatan preachers not only are spreading FALSE, misleading doctrine but, they are teaching this to OTHERS and leading people astray.

Jeremiah 23:14:

I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness; they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.
They committed adultry, again specific sexuality immorality, and were liars and decievers. They supported and gave legitimacy to the godless ones, those who had no place in their heart for God. God says that THIS is how they remind them of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Jeremiah 23:16:

Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.
They developed their own self-serving religion and spoke as if THEY were the Lord God.

You will notice that the above passages make a strong statement about these cities, comparing them with the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. Where was homosexuality mentioned? Where? How many times was adultry specifically mentioned?

Every last word above including misspelling are cut and paste from a gay website.
http://whosoever.org/links.shtml

http://www.whosoever.org/v2i3/sodom.html

My favorite:

Well, I haven't been able to find the phrase, "homosexuality" anywhere in Genisis or Judges or anywhere else in the Bible refering to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Leading the gays to false hope. The word Homosexuality was invented recently. It is english and of course in not bible dictionaries.

Our Vision: Whosoever Ministries, Inc. exists to provides a safe and sacred space for gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Christians to reclaim, rekindle and grow their relationship with God.

This Magazine is what DAAII source of biblical scholarship and fine hermeneutics.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by coadie

This is a cut and paste from a gay website. No wonder you whine and complain about hermeneutics.

Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 condemns male homosexual behaviour, but appears to refer only to temple prostitution. Even if it did refer to lesbian and gay relationships, it would not be applicable to Christians today, any more than the passages which surround these verses which form the Jewish Holiness Code.

Goofy .... did you just follow the link I provided ?????? ...

A referenced quote that mainly culls from the word of God and gives a succinct literal and logical explanation and legitimate questions of various God-BREATHED verses that you refuse to factor in your wooden literalism where GAY is EQUATED to WICKED.

Coadie, scripture interprets other scripture .... and refusing to allow the light of the Word and the prophetic Word in Ezequiel help unlock a narrative WHICH DOES NOT EXPLICITY SAY WHAT YOU HAVE FORCED INTO IT ... illuminates your continued disdain for sound doctrine and your pet agenda.

It's painfully clear ... a gay guy has a sounder approach ... and knows more bible than you do but you keep dancin' and attackin'... shake your freaky con 'bom-bom and violate His Word.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by DAII

Goofy .... did you just follow the link I provided ...

A referenced quote that mainly culls from the word of God and gives a succinct literal and logical explanation and legitimate questions of various God-BREATHED verses that you refuse to factor in your wooden literalism where GAY is EQUATED to WICKED.

Coadie, scripture interprets other scripture .... and refusing to allow the light of the Word and the prophetic Word in Ezequiel help unlock a narrative WHICH DOES NOT EXPLICITY SAY WHAT YOU HAVE FORCED INTO IT ... shows your continued disdain for sound doctrine and your pet agenda.

It's painfully clear ... a gay guy knows more bible than you do but you keep dancin' and attackin'... shake your freaky con 'bom-bom.

I thought you actually did some work.
So you can't show hermeneutics.

What is the gay deal with trans gendereds? If one switches, do you call them no longer a same sex couple? Does the gay apologetics have verses on sex changes?

The other page from the gay website is the verses they say are Not clear. They must not understand small words. (see next post)

And again, the bible doesn't use the word gay like you define it. The Word doesn't say "homosexual". You need a home bible study and a good pastor.

[coadie]

Looks like the gender confiused are scripture confused

Critical Look At Scripture From The Ontario Centre For Religious Tolerance
Many people have been taught during childhood that homosexual behaviour is condemned both by God and by their religion as unnatural and morally degenerate. If they discover later in life that they are lesbian, gay, or bisexual they often go through a spiritual crisis. Too many realize that their sexual orientation is unchangeable, and that they cannot go through life as someone that they have been taught to hate; they commit suicide. (About 30% of teen suicides are due to this cause; one of the costs of homophobia). Survivors experience a conflict between what they are and what they believe. They sometimes abandon their religion. Some become enthusiastically anti-religious.

The purpose of this essay is to explore the possibility of a gay or lesbian restoring their faith by overcoming the apparent conflict between their religion and their sexual orientation. We will select what might be the most difficult example: that of a homosexual, ex-Fundamentalist Christian who
believes that the Bible is inerrant; (i.e. is without error in its original form) and whose denomination condemns homosexual behaviour.

Step 1: What Did Jesus Christ Say about Homosexuality?In a word, nothing. He is recorded as having given hundreds of instructions covering behaviour and thought; but none of these dealt with homosexuality. Jesus concentrated on a person's
interactions with God and his fellow humans. He did tell the woman who committed adultery to go and sin no more. But that was the only time he is known to have commented on sexual morality. Jesus may have felt that homosexuality was not a matter worth commenting upon.

Step 2: Understanding the Hebrew Scriptures

There are many places in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) that have been traditionally interpreted as condemning homosexuality. It is important that we go past modern day translations like the King James Version, and determine what the original authors wrote. In their eagerness to condemn gays and lesbians, the translators and interpreters of the Bible often introduced an anti-homosexual slant. A careful analysis of the original texts reveals a different story:

Genesis 19 describes the destruction of Sodom, which has been attributed to the homosexuality of its citizens; the men may have wanted to rape the (male) angels. Actually, the text at this point is ambiguous; the original Hebrew word sometimes referred to sexual activity although it usually meant "to know" in a literal sense. But a careful reading of Genesis and Ezekiel reveals that inhospitality pride, idol worship, and lack of consideration for the poor were their prime sins. If homosexuality was involved, it was obviously not consentual sexual activity; it was rape. So we can safely conclude that Sodom was destroyed because of the sins of its citizens which included their habit of raping visitors.
Judges 19 seems to be a duplicate of the Genesis story.

Leviticus 18:22 & 20:13 condemns male homosexual behaviour, but appears to refer only to temple prostitution. Even if it did refer to lesbian and gay relationships, it would not be applicable to Christians today, any more than the passages which surround these verses which form the Jewish Holiness Code.

Deuteronomy 23:17, I Kings 14:24 and 15:12 are mistranslated in some versions of the Bible as referring to homosexual behaviour. "Temple prostitute" would be an accurate translation.

Ruth 1:16 and 2:10-11 describe a deeply intimate relationship between Ruth and Naomi which may or may not have had a sexual component.

1 Samuel 18:1-4 and 20:41-42 and 2 Samuel 1:25-26 describe a deeply intimate relationship between David and Jonathan which may or may not have had a sexual component.

We conclude that the Hebrew Scriptures condemn homosexual rape and temple prostitution, but do not disapprove of gay and lesbian relationships. One can be confident that centuries of fire and brimstone sermons on homosexuality based on verses from the Old Testament are misinterpretations of the Bible.

Step 3: Understanding the Christian Scriptures

There are many places in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) that have been traditionally interpreted as condemning homosexuality.

Romans 1:26 and 27 has St. Paul criticizing sexual activity which is against a person's nature or disposition. This passage has been variously interpreted to refer to all homosexual behaviour, to orgiastic activity, to temple prostitution, or to heterosexuals who were engaging in same-sex exchanges. The meaning is unclear. I Corinthians 6:9 contains a lists of activities that will prevent people from inheriting the Kingdom of God. One was translated as referring to masturbation, and is now sometimes translated as "homosexual". The true meaning is lost.

1 Timothy 1:9 is similar to I Corinthians.

Jude 7 refers to the people of Sodom as "giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh". The latter has been variously translated as women engaging in sexual intercourse with angels and as homosexuality. The exact meaning is lost.We conclude that St. Paul in the Christian Scriptures seems to have condemned some homosexual activity, but it is unclear which ones. There is no mention of loving, committed gay and lesbian relations in the Christian Scriptures.

--The Ontario Centre for Religious Tolerance provides accurate
information on small religions, and exposes groundless religious hatred.
For more information on the OCRT you can write to them at:

Fornication and adultery are sin. Your friends say if they are loving and commited and gay they are not sin.

Davids adultery was consentual.

The gay scholars are trying an old trick. interpreting scripture using the culture and personal experience,.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by coadie

I thought you actually did some work.
So you can't show hermeneutics.

What is the gay deal with trans gendereds? If one switches, do you call them no longer a same sex couple? Does the gay apologetics have verses on sex changes?

The other page from the gay website is the verses they say are Not clear. They must not understand small words. (see next post)

And again, the bible doesn't use the word gay like you define it. The Word doesn't say "homosexual". You need a home bible study and a good pastor.

Now my turn ... your attempts to deflect, misdirect and obfuscate are a textbook example of an ID resorting to an ego defense mechanisms called PROJECTION:

Attributing one's thoughts or impulses to another person. In common use, this is limited to unacceptable or undesirable impulses. Examples: (1) a man, unable to accept that he has competitive or hostile feelings about an acquaintance, says, “He doesn’t like me.” (2) a woman, denying to herself that she has sexual feelings about a co-worker, accuses him, without basis, of flirt and described him as a “wolf.”



This defense mechanism is commonly over utilized by the paranoid.

and

AVOIDANCE

A defense mechanism consisting of refusal to encounter situations, objects, or activities because they represent unconscious sexual or aggressive impulses and/or punishment for those impulses; avoidance, according to the dynamic theory, is a major defense mechanism in phobias. [symbolization] [displacement

Your inadecuacies in the area of hermeneutic usually resort in your deflecting and taking an offensive posture spanking your pet PINATA -homosexuals.

A twisted irony AND perhaps an indicator of a deeper, more jaded neurosis ... and maybe .... psychosis.

You often intellectuallize, imo, as well without never really addressing gaping holes in your argumentation.

But that's just me.

Plainly said ... it's easier to put the light on someone else' s sin ... but never addressing the monster within.

[coadie]

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

[COLORThe meaning is unclear="Blue"][/COLOR]

That is an example of willfull ignorance.

A gay lifestyle is many sins
First they lie to themselves, God and in apologetics
2 They say fornication and adultery do NOT apply as sins if the relationship is consentual, loving and/or committed.
3 The scriptures are not clear. That is another lie. Christians get discernement. If you stumble on big words, pray over it.
4 God made me this way is a lie. No trans sexuals went to

......Trinidad Colorado - Sex Change Capital of the World
They say God made a mistake.

The gullible like DAII that cut and paste and run from exegesis think the gay apologetics have the new revelation. This was going on when corinthians was written.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by DAII

Now my turn ... your attempts to deflect, misdirect and obfuscate are a textbook example of an ID resorting to an ego defense mechanisms called PROJECTION:


and

AVOIDANCE



Your inadecuacies in the area of hermeneutic usually resort in your deflecting and taking an offensive posture spanking your pet PINATA -homosexuals.

A twisted irony AND perhaps an indicator of a deeper, more jaded neurosis ... and maybe .... psychosis.
You often intellectuallize, imo, as well without never really addressing gaping holes in your argumentation.

But that's just me.

Plainly said ... it's easier to put the light on someone else' s sin ... but never addressing the monster within.

What is a jaded neurosis? You are like a child making up expressions. You also don't understand what a psychosis is.

If you are too lazy to study this topic and have to rely on googling a GLBT site to do it for you so it fits their agenda, I understand. You are clarifying your motives.

You all say sodomy is not sin, then you all must you all have your own fringe group.

You misgoogled the Freudian defense mechanisms. Anna is sooo 1930's.

[crakjak]

Has anyone mentioned that there is a book out entitled, "Sex Begins in th Kitchen", does that go along with this thread??? lol