The Difference Between the PCI of the Merger and the Current Counterfeits

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Shingledecker

1 Faith, your statement ended with "Without baptism faith is simply word, not deed."
You just proved my point. We are not saved by "deeds", but by belief (faith) that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He is raised from the dead.

"Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God." 1 John 4:2
"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." 1 John 4:15
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him." 1 John 5:1

One of the principle rules in good hermeneutics is to have enough scripture to support your doctrine. Of course he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved! (Mk 16:16)Because he believes he is baptized. Look at the rest of your reference...notice it does not say that he that "believeth not and is not baptized", because the emphasis in the verse is the primary verb, BELIEVETH.
I am in no way saying that baptism is not necessary, which some are quick to say. It is just not necessary to be saved, otherwise (back to your point) we have to do a "deed" in order to be saved, and brother, noone has that prerogative but Jesus, His finished work on the cross and resurrection.

So you believe faith without action saves you? If you do you go against Paul and James teaching on faith. Paul certainly did not teach faith without action, he taught faith without works. There is a difference. Believing is an action and repentance is an action.

I suggest studying the meaning of Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16

remission of sins is required for salvation.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

...
remission of sins is required for salvation.

I think many agree that remission/removal/forgiveness/cleansing/pardon/washing away of sin is necessary for salvation. We just don't believe it only happens through water baptism and only if the proper words are spoken.

Some believe sins are washed away at baptism and we eat and drink the blood of Jesus at communion but only in a symbolic way --not literally.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

So you believe faith without action saves you? If you do you go against Paul and James teaching on faith. Paul certainly did not teach faith without action, he taught faith without works. There is a difference. Believing is an action and repentance is an action.

I suggest studying the meaning of Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16

remission of sins is required for salvation.

Remission = forgiveness, pardon.
Does 1faith think the blood of Jesus is insufficient?
When someone can say, "I have done X (a physical act) to be saved", they have entered the realm of the Galatian Judaizers that demanded circumcision for "acceptance" into the church. Have you been baptized? Might as well say, have you been circumcized? Same meaning.
Acts 22:16 the term washed away refers to a figurative washing. In other words it's a spiritual washing and baptism is symbolic of that cleansing for sin. I'll say 'er agin, ONLY the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from sin!
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" 1Peter 1:19
As far as remission and the varied use of the word, let me also ask 1faith, at what point are you forgiven?
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

So a sinner can't be forgiven until he's baptized, and a saint is forgiven after he confesses his sin...???

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." Galatians 3:22

IOW, "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

This is not any more easy believism than what happened in Acts. The difference is that you want to interpret this position into a non-repentance, non-Jesus' name, none-Oneness position because of the prism you read through. There is more to being apostolic than Acts 2:38

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit" Hebrews 6:1-3

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Shingledecker

Remission = forgiveness, pardon.
Does 1faith think the blood of Jesus is insufficient?
When someone can say, "I have done X (a physical act) to be saved", they have entered the realm of the Galatian Judaizers that demanded circumcision for "acceptance" into the church. Have you been baptized? Might as well say, have you been circumcized? Same meaning.
Acts 22:16 the term washed away refers to a figurative washing. In other words it's a spiritual washing and baptism is symbolic of that cleansing for sin. I'll say 'er agin, ONLY the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from sin!
"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" 1Peter 1:19
As far as remission and the varied use of the word, let me also ask 1faith, at what point are you forgiven?
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

So a sinner can't be forgiven until he's baptized, and a saint is forgiven after he confesses his sin...???

"But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe." Galatians 3:22

IOW, "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Romans 10:9

This is not any more easy believism than what happened in Acts. The difference is that you want to interpret this position into a non-repentance, non-Jesus' name, none-Oneness position because of the prism you read through. There is more to being apostolic than Acts 2:38

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this will we do, if God permit" Hebrews 6:1-3

There isn't one place in the entire Bible where a person said a prayer and was saved. They stated they believed in the Lord by confession and were baptized the same day. They also were laid hands on to receive the Spirit. I am not looking through any prism because I am not bound to being apostolic by denomination. I am only interested in what the Bible says..

I could stand at the cross and look at Jesus' blood all day but if I don't grab ahold of it, Jesus isn't going to put me in it.

[Sabby]

What else would you call confession to our intercessory High Priest if it is not prayer?
Don't you pray for forgiveness? That goes along with confessing your sins...
I don't grab a hold of the blood of Jesus Christ by something I do...HE has DONE it!
I have to BELIEVE it!
It's really that simple, my friend.

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Shingledecker

What else would you call confession to our intercessory High Priest if it is not prayer?
Don't you pray for forgiveness? That goes along with confessing your sins...
I don't grab a hold of the blood of Jesus Christ by something I do...HE has DONE it!
I have to BELIEVE it!
It's really that simple, my friend.

Nope you have to come to him by faith which requires action. I didn't say prayer isn't included, I said prayer wasn't all that was required. A covenant to repent and be baptized into his death. That is the only way we can experience the redemption of his blood. A covenant without a seal is no covenant at all. The cross is sufficient, oh yes it is! But there is only one way we get to it, thats by believing and being baptized.

Oh how I remember when that took place and my sins were washed away!

[Sabby]

My sins were taken care of by Jesus Christ on the cross. Scripture is perverted by saying that the atonement is in the water! What sacrifice did you do to get you to the water? nada. Holy water? You'll need to go to the Catholic Church for that!
"and Moses took the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger, and purified the altar, and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar, and sanctified it, to make reconciliation upon it." Lev 8:15
"...and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel:" II Chron 29:24
"And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement(reconciliation)." Romans 5:11
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Hebrews 9:22
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." Hebrews 2:17
"But (you are redeemed) with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" 1 Peter 1:19
"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Hebrews 9:11-14

Oh how I love Him, how I adore Him, my breath, my saviour, my all in all! The great creator, became my saviour, and all the fulness dwelleth in Him! Booth-Clibborne

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Shingledecker

My sins were taken care of by Jesus Christ on the cross. Scripture is perverted by saying that the atonement is in the water! What sacrifice did you do to get you to the water? nada. Holy water? You'll need to go to the Catholic Church for that!
"and Moses took the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger, and purified the altar, and poured the blood at the bottom of the altar, and sanctified it, to make reconciliation upon it." Lev 8:15
"...and they made reconciliation with their blood upon the altar, to make an atonement for all Israel:" II Chron 29:24
"And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement(reconciliation)." Romans 5:11
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission." Hebrews 9:22
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people." Hebrews 2:17
"But (you are redeemed) with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" 1 Peter 1:19
"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Hebrews 9:11-14

Oh how I love Him, how I adore Him, my breath, my saviour, my all in all! The great creator, became my saviour, and all the fulness dwelleth in Him! Booth-Clibborne

I didn't say the water cleansed you. I said when you are baptized the blood of Jesus is applied to your life. That of course if you have believed first.

[Sabby]

1 Faith
"But there is only one way we get to it, thats by believing and being baptized.

Oh how I remember when that took place and my sins were washed away! "

Then you said, "I didn't say the water cleansed you. I said when you are baptized the blood of Jesus is applied to your life."

Again, what you are saying is that the blood is applied in the waters of baptism, which again goes back to what you said that the water doesn't cleanse you. So what cleanses you? The blood? The water?
It is your belief/faith in Jesus' complete sufficiency that applies His blood in the heavenlies for your sins and mine. No amount of finagling will change it!
Lov ya

[onefaith2]

Originally Posted by Shingledecker

1 Faith
"But there is only one way we get to it, thats by believing and being baptized.

Oh how I remember when that took place and my sins were washed away! "

Then you said, "I didn't say the water cleansed you. I said when you are baptized the blood of Jesus is applied to your life."

Again, what you are saying is that the blood is applied in the waters of baptism, which again goes back to what you said that the water doesn't cleanse you. So what cleanses you? The blood? The water?
It is your belief/faith in Jesus' complete sufficiency that applies His blood in the heavenlies for your sins and mine. No amount of finagling will change it!
Lov ya

Will you defangle over and over what I said to make me say something I am not.

The first post I did means When I was baptized calling on the name of Jesus, my sins were washed away (acts 22:16)

The second post is referring to what takes place spiritually WHEN you are baptized. The water is only the mode of baptism, has nothing to do with the blood being applied.

The blood is applied WHEN we repent and be baptized in water (Mark 16:16) which is how we are SAVED from our sin (by His Blood).

I am trying to spell it out the best I can so you can see what I believe so you will know assuredly that water baptism alone has no saving power without complete faith in Jesus Christ.

However With Faith in Jesus Christ, water baptism becames the avenue by which we put on Christ, are buried in his Death, and helps us have the promise of his resurrection.

Thats as Biblically as I can say it.

Blessings in Christ to you as well