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  #21  
Old 07-08-2010, 11:52 AM
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A.W. Bowman A.W. Bowman is offline
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Re: Did Paul take scripture out of context?

The word ‘perfect’.

Of the 109 occurrences of the word “perfect” (as rendered in KJV English Bible), they reflect a dazzling array of original language words. There are fourteen different Hebrew words translated as “perfect” and ten different Greek words translated as “perfect”. Each of the original words has different meanings as well as carrying a wide range of possible individual tones, shadings and understandings. Even in one verse, such as Ps 101:2, we find the word perfect used twice in our KJV Bibles. However, the first perfect means “whole, sound, healthful”, while the second perfect means “integrity”, which renders Ps 101:2 differently than:

“I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.” KJV
This translation would frequently be interpreted as: I will behave in a way that is without error or flaw, so when will you (God) come to me? My heart will also be without defect, error or flaw. Or, some such rendering.

My translation of this same text:

“I will give heed to and follow the path (the way) of complete wholesomeness; Oh when will You come unto me? Inside my own house I will walk (live) my life in the integrity of my heart.” AWB

The interpretation could be something like this:

I will give heed to (take not of) and walk (live) in the precepts of your (God's) instructions for righteous living (Torah), requiring nothing else beyond your instructions. Therefore, tell me, when will you come unto me in true relationship? Even as I live out my life, within myself, I shall maintain my integrity (moral soundness, a life devoid of sin) before you.

See:

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan: ‘Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a whole-hearted and an upright man, one that feareth God, and shunneth evil? and he still holdeth fast his integrity, although thou didst move Me against him, to destroy him without cause.’

Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him: ‘Dost thou still hold fast thine integrity? blaspheme God, and die.’

Job 27:5 Far be it from me that I should justify you; till I die I will not put away mine integrity from me.

In these passages, the English word, integrity is translated correctly from the Hebrew (H8538)תֻּמָּה : integrity
In Job 4:6 "Is not this thy fear, thy confidence, thy hope, and the uprightness of thy ways?"

In this case the word 'uprightness' is used; from H8537, meaning
1) integrity, completeness
2) 1a) completeness, fullness
3) 1b) innocence, simplicity
4) 1c) integrity
5) The more correct translation should have been #1.
6) "Is not this thy fear, thy confidence, thy hope, and the integrity of thy ways?"

Note that the English term, uprightness, as used in the KJV translation also means, "Righteousness as a consequence of being honorable and honest". So, while the English translators of the KJV of the Bible did not use the 'correct' English word in this case, they found a suitable substitute, that if properly understood, conveys the correct sense of the passage.

Anyway, this is the kind of exercise required in order to perform an acceptable translation and interpretation of the original language passages into a coherent English rendering. When the task includes taking the Greek and working backwards through the Hebrew to identify the original world view being presented (represented) and the religious context of a particular passage, the job becomes a little more difficult.

While I love working these kinds of problems, I do have a difficult time with Hebrew grammar, which is not surprising for me, as I have yet to master my second language grammar, English. Yes, English is not my native language, infantile gibberish is, and I didn't need any grammar to speak it - still don't!

Okay, I'm done.
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  #22  
Old 07-08-2010, 11:59 AM
Maximilian Maximilian is offline
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Re: Did Paul take scripture out of context?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Preachers today quote a verse in the OT "Out of context" to use it as an illustration
I've found they do more than create an illustration to an otherwise Biblical point, but they create truth statements from it. We must be careful to distinguish between a biblical analogy (they were used to the Jews because these were stories -- quite often -- that they were familiar with) and making implications that because it's scripture, then all applications you make with this illustration is truth.

We must approach the Bible as a Story. Not in a Dispensationalist time-table, but as a Story. A Story that has changes, climaxes, reveals God's character as he interacts with people, and it shows the beauty of the coming Messiah.
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  #23  
Old 07-08-2010, 12:00 PM
Maximilian Maximilian is offline
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Re: Did Paul take scripture out of context?

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Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
That is a classic case of arguing from silence, though.
I'd urge you to read Fee's comments on this first.

It's classic exegesis.
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  #24  
Old 07-08-2010, 12:36 PM
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Re: Did Paul take scripture out of context?

Quote:
Originally Posted by HaShaliach View Post
...

While I love working these kinds of problems, I do have a difficult time with Hebrew grammar, which is not surprising for me, as I have yet to master my second language grammar, English. Yes, English is not my native language, infantile gibberish is, and I didn't need any grammar to speak it - still don't!

Okay, I'm done.


Thanks Bro. B. I appreciated both posts and the summation was sheer grandeur in my eyes.
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  #25  
Old 07-08-2010, 02:14 PM
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Re: Did Paul take scripture out of context?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximilian View Post
I've found they do more than create an illustration to an otherwise Biblical point, but they create truth statements from it. We must be careful to distinguish between a biblical analogy (they were used to the Jews because these were stories -- quite often -- that they were familiar with) and making implications that because it's scripture, then all applications you make with this illustration is truth.

We must approach the Bible as a Story. Not in a Dispensationalist time-table, but as a Story. A Story that has changes, climaxes, reveals God's character as he interacts with people, and it shows the beauty of the coming Messiah.
If I have explicit statements of truth, then I use a bible story for an illustration Im not necessarily using a verse or story out of context to prove doctrine but to illustrate a bible truth.

I'll give a slightly different example. We are going through the temple in a bible study. Most of the "study" revolves around types and shadows. For example the board used to make the walls are acacia wood overlayed with gold. It is claimed by the authors that this is a type of Christ...the wood represents his humanity and the gold His Deity. We find this as a bible truth..that Jesus is both God and man, yet we never find that the board was made this way as a type. I can find types and shadows all through out the bible that the bible never actually says is a type or shadow. This too is sort of using the bible as an illustration to teach a bible truth.
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  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
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  #26  
Old 07-08-2010, 02:24 PM
Maximilian Maximilian is offline
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Re: Did Paul take scripture out of context?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
If I have explicit statements of truth, then I use a bible story for an illustration Im not necessarily using a verse or story out of context to prove doctrine but to illustrate a bible truth.

I'll give a slightly different example. We are going through the temple in a bible study. Most of the "study" revolves around types and shadows. For example the board used to make the walls are acacia wood overlayed with gold. It is claimed by the authors that this is a type of Christ...the wood represents his humanity and the gold His Deity. We find this as a bible truth..that Jesus is both God and man, yet we never find that the board was made this way as a type. I can find types and shadows all through out the bible that the bible never actually says is a type or shadow. This too is sort of using the bible as an illustration to teach a bible truth.
That's a good example. And while I think it's acceptable (in a homiletic sense) to point to an analogy to establish a biblical truth independent of that analogy, I think we should be careful. Particularly with types and shadows, which have a completely different hermeneutic grid for usage.

The thing is, when we lean heavily on this sort of usage of scripture, we make the Bible appears as some mystic code with hidden meanings and magical powers. While there is definitely a mystical element to poring over its pages, the Bible has a message that meant something to its authors and its original audiences. We need to discover that and learn what it means to us. This is why I lean more toward Exegetical teaching.
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  #27  
Old 07-08-2010, 02:25 PM
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Re: Did Paul take scripture out of context?

So, was Paul using this verse as an illustration or was he giving a whole new meaning to it that the context does not support?
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #28  
Old 07-08-2010, 02:26 PM
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Re: Did Paul take scripture out of context?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximilian View Post
That's a good example. And while I think it's acceptable (in a homiletic sense) to point to an analogy to establish a biblical truth independent of that analogy, I think we should be careful. Particularly with types and shadows, which have a completely different hermeneutic grid for usage.

The thing is, when we lean heavily on this sort of usage of scripture, we make the Bible appears as some mystic code with hidden meanings and magical powers. While there is definitely a mystical element to poring over its pages, the Bible has a message that meant something to its authors and its original audiences. We need to discover that and learn what it means to us. This is why I lean more toward Exegetical teaching.
I agree.
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #29  
Old 07-08-2010, 02:33 PM
Maximilian Maximilian is offline
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Re: Did Paul take scripture out of context?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
So, was Paul using this verse as an illustration or was he giving a whole new meaning to it that the context does not support?
And furthemore, if it be the case, should today's ministers take the same license, liberty and authority as Paul?
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  #30  
Old 07-08-2010, 02:35 PM
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Re: Did Paul take scripture out of context?

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Originally Posted by Maximilian View Post
And furthemore, if it be the case, should today's ministers take the same license, liberty and authority as Paul?
Absolutely not, but I don't think Paul was giving new meaning to it. I think he was using the old meaning to make a point on a new topic
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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