Ministries for women porn addicts

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

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What are your sins, TS?

I believe we have all been trying to carry on a rational discussion here and I don't believe it would be advantageous to have it carry a tone that is accusatory and abusive, Jeffrey.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

How did we get here as a society? I was at the drug store and I observed two teen girls picking out condoms. Is our nation overly influenced by sex? Hollywood? Music? Schools?

I think there are several issues facing these kids. First, too many parents want to be “buddies” and not parents. Parents have to “parent” their kids.

Also, we do live in a sensual society. This of course adds to their pressures and temptations.

We live in an overly advanced society. For thousands of years human beings have married and even began families in their mid to late teens. Only within the past century has society advanced to the point that education necessary to survive requires that young adults not seek marriage and raise a family until mid to late 20’s. Historically speaking this is the longest any society has expected a person to wait before seeking marriage and fulfillment. So we need to acknowledge…we’re going to be fighting against the current.

We need to cover them with prayer and fasting, encourage prayer and fasting, AND have much grace and mercy in regards to their struggles.

Now…for these specific girls you’re talking about. I’m saddened. At least their thinking about protecting themselves. Too bad…this shouldn’t be so.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

I would say that finding one's future spouse to be attractive, and lusting after them, are two different things. Even finding them sexually attractive, and lusting after them, are two different things. It is possible to find them attractive and NOT lust after them.

True. Lust desires to merely use someone for the purpose of gratifying your own needs without regards to their wellbeing or identity as a person. Of course, not all fantasy is lusting.

I disagree that this commandment is addressed only to "predators". It is addressed to every man, and woman, for that matter. Jesus' commandment was simply this: don't lust! Don't fantasize about someone else unless it is your spouse. And when I say fantasize, I mean allow one's thoughts to entertain the idea of having sexual relations with someone other than their spouse. James said:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren". (James 1:14-16)

A fantasy is merely a fantasy. Should it be elaborated upon? I’d advise against it. But I see “lust” as something far more serious than an adolescent fantasy or daydream.

You're calling lust "healthy"? Because when an individual (regardless of their age) fantasizes about having sexual relations- of any kind- with someone who is not their spouse, that's lust. Lust results in sin (even if not acted upon), and sin results in spiritual death.

No, “lust” is not healthy. But we’re defining lust differently. I don’t think every fantasy is lust. I don’t believe that every daydream about owning a corvette is covetousness. Now, if you look at that corvette and consider how you might steal it… you’ve sinned the sin of covetousness in the heart before the actual theft.

But that does not make it right in God's eyes.

It doesn’t mean it’s a “sin” in God’s eyes either.

You've completely obviated the thrust of Jesus' commandment. He was specifically going beyond the physical act itself to deal with the intent of the heart. If one lusts in their heart over someone who is not their spouse, then Jesus says they've committed adultery. The act takes place in the heart, but Jesus considered it on the same level as one who commits the physical act.

That’s the crux of the matter. God looks at the intent of the heart. An adolescent fantasy isn’t “lust”. A single having a fantasy about someone they’re attracted to or would like to marry isn’t “lust” either. Now, if one is “checking out” a woman (or a man) with the express desire to seduce them…that’s lust before they’ve even said, “Hello.”

Another point is that Jesus said that lust is adultery in the heart. Jesus didn’t say that it is actual “adultery”. One would hardly stone another person for a fantasy…or perhaps you would.

Hence the seriousness of the condition of the heart. Here's what Scripture also has to say about the heart:

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer 17:9)

"And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man." (Mark 7:20-23)

To "defile" is to make unholy and unclean. If it causes one to be unholy, this then causes them to break communion with God. It is sin. Paul includes these in his list (Gal 5) of the lusts of the flesh, but they all begin in the heart, and once conceived in the heart, it is the same in God's eyes as having committed the physical act. That's why God commands us to be holy, as he is holy. We are commanded to bring EVERY thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ (2Cor 10:5). We are not to be conformed to this world and its way of thinking, but are to be transformed by the renewing of our minds to prove what is that good, and perfect, and acceptable will of God (Ro 12:1-2).

Scripture also says that as a man thinks in his heart, so is he (Pro 23:7).

I don’t disagree. Where we disagree on is the definition of “lust”. You’d say every fantasy outside of fantasizing about one’s spouse is “lust” and is actually adultery. I contend that there are boundaries wherein there is “fantasy” and then there is a point when fantasy can become “lust”.

I would question whether true prayer and fasting has even taken place. Fasting specifically brings our body under subjection to the will of the Spirit. Is the individual even baptized with the Holy Ghost? Has intercessory prayer and fasting been offered by the pastor and the church on behalf of this individual. Paul said God will make a way of escape in temptation (1Cor 10:13). The writer of Hebrews said:

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Heb 4:15-16)

Again, we’re disagreeing with the definition of lust and sin. I believe some things are normal and perhaps even healthy. You contend that it’s all sinful. When it comes to what I believe to be “sin” I fully agree with you. But I’ll disagree where I don’t see something as “sin”. Personally, I believe there is wisdom in Dobson’s position. For the vast majority of young people and singles this isn’t a battle won. We can either keep them in a constant position of condemnation or we can teach them that they are human, that God loves them, and that there are boundaries. When a fantasy progresses into an actual desire to have something in spite of God’s commandment its sin, rather it be interest in a person or a material possession.

TO BE CONTINUED....

[Aquila]

CONTINUED...

But this is a strawman argument, for I never said God hated those who succumb to sin. The whole point of what I've been saying has been centered around the verses I just quoted above: if we'll turn to God during temptation, he will give us "grace to help in time of need". So my argument is ALL about the grace of God, and how it gives us the ability to remain pure and holy before him.

But you’re definition is such that if anyone is honest, one cannot be pure and holy before God. I contend that human beings can be pure and holy before God. Not because they achieve some puritanical level of perfection…but because sin is properly defined to the point wherein it’s understood and boundaries aren’t crossed.

Destroying kids? The promises and commandments of Scripture never destroy, they always liberate and bring new life in Christ Jesus: the liberty to live free from sin and bondage to the carnality of the flesh.

I attended an ultra conservative church for many years. Our retention regarding our youth was abysmal. We lost nearly 87% or more of our youth after they graduated from the school we had. Most felt condemned, defeated, and unloved by God for merely being human. And so they gave in and decided if they can’t beat what they were taught was sin…they might as well give in and join up with the world. It’s truly a sad state of affairs. I remember talking to a boy who had some struggles in this area. His father caught him and berated him, calling him an “animal”, and even went as far as to tell his son it was a homosexual act because being a male, self gratification was male/male gratification. This kid was “horrified”. He began to drift badly. Condemnation caused him to give up. One day I asked if we could talk and asked him what was wrong. At first he resisted but eventually he broke. Sobbing about how much God hated him and how badly he’d failed he detailed what had happened. I stood there looking at a health young man who was spiritually shattered by spiritual abuse. I told him that I don’t think it was a homosexual act. He looked into my eyes in disbelief. He said, “You don’t?” I explained that I felt it was a normal phase of self discovery and it was a normal aspect of being a human being. I shared with him some things that Dr. James Dobson had written or said on the matter. This young man was so broken he actually asked, “So does that mean that God still loves me?” I said, “Yes, God still loves you more than you’ll ever know.” He explained how he had a fantasy about a woman in an add. I asked if he’d ever truly do anything. He said, “NO! That would be such a sin against God!” I said, “If you’d never do this outside of marriage…you’re not in sin. It’s just a fantasy. Understand it as such and don’t let this kind of thinking become something that leads you to desire to act on the interest.” This time he broke and wept because the weight of condemnation was finally lifted. I went to the altar with him that evening and he felt a mighty touch from a loving Heavenly Father. He soon began participating in youth functions again. He then joined the choir. Every now and then we’d talk. He said that for some reason when he was feeling lost his behavior seemed to have him in the grips. It was three or more times a day with feverish intensity. After lifting the condemnation and giving it to the Lord things calmed in his soul. Now it was less frequent and when it did happen, he was assured in a God who loved him and created him a healthy male. He later began attending Gateway Bible College. I lost track of him after I left that church. But I hope this illustrates what I’m talking about.

No, Scripture makes self-gratification a forbidden fruit. And when I point individuals to the truths and promises of Scripture, they are able to place their trust in their Savior, who can then give them his power to overcome temptation, lust, and sin, so that they can live holy lives before him.

I assure you, many are lying to you about their being “free”. I’ve seen it over and over and over. I’m an easy going person. People know that unless you’re a legalistic Pharisee, I don’t judge you. I’ve known people to put up a front because the standard expected of them is so high…but when talking to me they admit the truth. It’s disheartening how we teach people to be hypocrites.

While I’m inclined to believe that you have lived the victory you’ve talked about… I wouldn’t be surprised if you sent me a private message about those battles you’re fighting that no one knows. Like I said, I’ve seen it time and time again.

So now you're judging me? Is the concept of a Christian living an overcoming, victorious life in Christ Jesus that foreign to you? I'm sorry to see that your last comments have degraded into an argumentum ad hominem. As such, they are serving as a Red Herring to detract from the actual argument, namely, that Scripture condemns carnal behavior such as self-gratification. God specifically calls us to a life of holiness and purity of heart and actions.

We agree in pure Christian living…we just disagree as to where innocent fantasy begins and actual “sin” begins. In my mind, pure and holy Christian living is honest living. You are what you are. All the religiosity and desire to fulfill religious notions and standards are meaningless. You do well being REAL and falling before a loving Savior. You do well knowing that is truly “sin” and what is simply human. I know a pastor who taught that red pantyhose on a woman was a “sin”. Please… I have no time for that mess. Purity isn’t built on some legalistic or puritanical code as interpreted through legalistic eyes. Purity is being real. You’re outward religious self lining up with your hidden self. A man who is honest about his own condition (sinful or not) is far more righteous than the most righteous sounding Pharisee who beats the drum for a righteousness neither he or another other has truly achieved.

You see, my friend, for some Christians, it's not about how much "liberty" they have in Christ as far as how much they can do and get away with without it being technically "sin", etc. Paul said we are not to use our liberty as an occasion for the flesh, or as a cloak for sin. In fact, for some it's not about them at all. It's about Christ. It's about living in such a way that the power and anointing of the Holy Ghost overflows in their life. It's about possessing the mind of Christ, so that they may speak the words of Christ, and they may work the works of Christ. It's about being set apart as a holy vessel in the hands of God. They are vessels and instruments of his anointing. And if being in that place means not exercising all the "liberties" we may or may not have, then that's okay. Because these seek a greater purpose, and it's not about self gratification at all. It's about gratifying Jesus Christ. "Not my will, but thine be done."

I agree. We simply draw the line in different places. I used to be an ultra con who was so heavenly minded I was no earthly good. Religion looses sight of reality and the human condition. If you’ve ever studied cults and “mind control” techniques, you’ll know that the establishment of false “taboos” is one way to break the will. The “true believer” will strive to master victory over the taboos…but unbeknownst to them, the victory is short lived and intended to keep them on the hamster’s wheel. Constantly striving and never arriving. It keeps people under control. Some of what we think are “sins” or “sinful” in Pentecost truly aren’t. Some things are just a matter of living as a human being on planet earth.

[Aquila]

In the Song of Songs, did the lovers fantasize about each other prior to their marriage? If so... is this book depicting grevious sin? Or are we seeing an example of normal human interest and a celebration of this most private aspect of our nature?

[allstate1]

I have spent 38 years in the UPCI and can only remember 1 sermon on sex within marriage!!!

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe we have all been trying to carry on a rational discussion here and I don't believe it would be advantageous to have it carry a tone that is accusatory and abusive, Jeffrey.

He was just askin'! And "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed."

[Aquila]

I contend that this private aspect of our nature is one to be celebrated as a gift. We are not to objectify or use others for personal pleasure. The fullest and most fulfilling aspect of this gift is found in marriage NOT in transient relationships outside of marriage (adultery and fornication). However, the blessings and personal comfort in this gift can be experienced by both marrieds and singles. Fantasy differs from lust in that with fantasy the intent of the heart continues to be pleasing to God. Lust truly desires to violate God's order. Within marriage the celebration can be deep, personal, spiritual, and playful. This is healthy and is also a blessing. Just my personal thoughts.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Timmy

He was just askin'! And "Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed."

Maybe he isn't sick. James 5:15 says, "And the prayer of faith shall save the sick...." Have we discussed this passage here before? I think it's interesting as I'm not sure it applies to everyone that isn't sick.

I Cor 11:30 is saying that we can make ourselves sick and weak by living a life irreverently toward God.

And, of course, if we have ought against our brother (Matt 5:23), we should go to them to give and obtain forgiveness. I'm thinking that TS would have to know he had injured Jeffrey in some way to call him out for a confession. Sure that didn't happen! LOL!

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe we have all been trying to carry on a rational discussion here and I don't believe it would be advantageous to have it carry a tone that is accusatory and abusive, Jeffrey.

yep, we have a good tasteful discussion, no need to get all personal.