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[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Language and plots help shape stories. Our house rule: if the movie/tv show is about something worthy, and it contains off-colors things as part of the story, then we discuss and consider watching. If it is only to glorify those debase things, which are no longer props to a story, but the entire point of the story, then we have better things to throw our minds in. There's plenty of entertainment that doesn't glory in sex, drugs and scandal. That doesn't mean a good movie won't have sex, drugs and scandal. Like NFS said, the Bible uses the same themes. Of course, the Biblical writers didn't just include those things for the sake of those things, but we're telling a story that pointed to an idea that was larger.

Good Will Hunting, for example. GREAT, GREAT MOVIE. However, it's full of curse words and the young man even fornicates. But that's not what the movie is about. The movie is about a young man overcoming the limitations of his environment (an environment that was accurately depicted through language and plots). The end result is a beautiful, riveting story that inspires us.

Good post. So many excellent films today that "Take you there". A couple more very strong, powerful films are "The Pianist" and "A Beautiful Mind". Both of these leave lasting impressions of stunning realities that we may otherwise have ignored.

I think one area many Americans don't understand is the concept of deep suffering. I've become more compassionate in my ministry and personal life because I am more aware of the hardships others have faced, breaking away from past boxed ideas that came from living in my world.

BTW, Good Will Hunting is a great movie.

[Jeffrey]

Even To Kill A Mockingbird, with it's sometimes base language, and vivid crimes, was a Pullitzer prize winner that was read by teenagers all over the country.

Through the eyes of Scout Finch, we accurately see a portrayal of his world as well as a classic story about rape and racial inequality.

Likewise, in Judges, they chop the victims body up into pieces and send to the tribes of Israel. But Judges is a vivid book about the realities of deposing Jesus as LORD in place of ourselves... and how far that road takes us.

[TomSlage]

This forum post AMAZES me. Let me first preface my comments by saying I read only a couple pages of this 101 page post, so if I'm missing some inside joke, PLEASE forgive and enlighten me.

I am new here. I'm a 24 year-old independent Apostolic that attended a UPC church for several years and has since departed company (amiably, my dad started a daughter work church). I accepted my call to preach at 17. And while I have heard stories of people making statements such as Jeffrey's, I've never actually seen it for myself:

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Language and plots help shape stories. Our house rule: if the movie/tv show is about something worthy, and it contains off-colors things as part of the story, then we discuss and consider watching. If it is only to glorify those debase things, which are no longer props to a story, but the entire point of the story, then we have better things to throw our minds in. There's plenty of entertainment that doesn't glory in sex, drugs and scandal. That doesn't mean a good movie won't have sex, drugs and scandal. Like NFS said, the Bible uses the same themes. Of course, the Biblical writers didn't just include those things for the sake of those things, but we're telling a story that pointed to an idea that was larger.

Good Will Hunting, for example. GREAT, GREAT MOVIE. However, it's full of curse words and the young man even fornicates. But that's not what the movie is about. The movie is about a young man overcoming the limitations of his environment (an environment that was accurately depicted through language and plots). The end result is a beautiful, riveting story that inspires us.

Wake up my dear Apostolic friends. How can you not see that this logic leads to the same grave error in doctrine that has plagued our movement's weakest leaders for centuries: "Well, the principles are good.."?

???

The biblical recollections of actual historical events that include the basest natures of man is meant for OUR LEARNING. In other words, DON'T have anything to do with these things. And these stories, may I remind you have NOTHING to do fictional entertainment. May I quote the scripture in Romans 1:32:

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

"WOW, that movie featuring murder, adultery and hot makeout scenes was AWESOME."

???

And whatever happened to Phillipians 4:8:

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

My God. While we ARE in a world where sin and depravity surround us and which we (through the weakness of flesh) occasionally ingest into our spiritual bodies, SHOULD WE THEN EXCUSE IT, and even seek it out? Should we then say that illicit sex, or drug use, or any other vile work of the flesh is an effective conveyor of wholesome principles? Dear God is heaven, NO, and a thousand times NO.

This thread was started back in 2007. It's now 2010. Has so much water flowed under the bridge that there are no believers that WANT the old paths? Television is a very effective outlet of fleshly indulgence, period. It's strokes the carnal nature within us that wants NOTHING of holiness, NOTHING of purity, NOTHING of the fear of God.

Is there no room for fiction then? Can there be no entertainment in the Church? Of course we can have entertainment, it's not spoken against in the Bible. But entertainment that uses ANY form of the sin as a means of accomplishing it's purpose is WRONG. I'm not going to put on my judge's robe and determine the eternal destiny of a person that watches television, but believe you me, I KNOW that person has welcomed a mortal enemy to their salvation right into their living room.

I hope I have skipped over many pages of people mirroring what I have said here.

[Melody]

Originally Posted by TomSlage

This forum post AMAZES me. Let me first preface my comments by saying I read only a couple pages of this 101 page post, so if I'm missing some inside joke, PLEASE forgive and enlighten me.

This thread was started back in 2007. It's now 2010. Has so much water flowed under the bridge that there are no believers that WANT the old paths? Television is a very effective outlet of fleshly indulgence, period. It's strokes the carnal nature within us that wants NOTHING of holiness, NOTHING of purity, NOTHING of the fear of God.
I hope I have skipped over many pages of people mirroring what I have said here.

unfortunately Tom, we are few and far between on this forum. better get some armor!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TomSlage

...
Wake up my dear Apostolic friends. How can you not see that this logic leads to the same grave error in doctrine that has plagued our movement's weakest leaders for centuries: "Well, the principles are good.."?

???

The biblical recollections of actual historical events that include the basest natures of man is meant for OUR LEARNING. In other words, DON'T have anything to do with these things. And these stories, may I remind you have NOTHING to do fictional entertainment. May I quote the scripture in Romans 1:32:

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

"WOW, that movie featuring murder, adultery and hot makeout scenes was AWESOME."

???

And whatever happened to Phillipians 4:8:

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

My God. While we ARE in a world where sin and depravity surround us and which we (through the weakness of flesh) occasionally ingest into our spiritual bodies, SHOULD WE THEN EXCUSE IT, and even seek it out? Should we then say that illicit sex, or drug use, or any other vile work of the flesh is an effective conveyor of wholesome principles? Dear God is heaven, NO, and a thousand times NO.
...

Is there no room for fiction then? Can there be no entertainment in the Church? Of course we can have entertainment, it's not spoken against in the Bible. But entertainment that uses ANY form of the sin as a means of accomplishing it's purpose is WRONG. I'm not going to put on my judge's robe and determine the eternal destiny of a person that watches television, but believe you me, I KNOW that person has welcomed a mortal enemy to their salvation right into their living room.

I hope I have skipped over many pages of people mirroring what I have said here.

This is an interesting thread - not the old dated subject matter - but the fact that it will not die!

TS, why do you look at "television" media (and throw in DVDs etc to the mix) as "entertainment" only? Personally, I have precious little time to be "entertained." I want information. Now, that information will sometimes come via storytelling - that's an age old way of communicating information, especially moral information.

It's already been mentioned that the Bible does this, and Jeffery pointed out that other stories can convey that message as well. Do you read Judges to be entertained? Would someone ever read a story like To Kill a Mocking Bird to be entertained? I don't think so.

We sometimes will allow such material to confront us because it forces us to think. We must evaluate moral choices - hypothetically in the case of the stories' characters, but ultimately we confront ourselves as well. Now, that's good film making.

Your "hot make out scenes" and etc, exist within a popular genre that honestly baffles my mind. Who has time for that? But that's probably another matter. Your statement about "weak leaders" is, I think, off base. Our weakest leaders have been those who refused to recognize the importance of principles and have allowed unprincipled measures to be forced upon us.

The history of the Apostolic Faith movement has been replete with examples of leaders laying down principles and masquerading their efforts with shrill cries of "holiness."

If even one of them had summoned the courage of a Luke Skywalker, Peter Parker or even the Welsh Choir at Rorke's Drift (Zulu, Paramount-Embassy Pictures, 1964) then we wouldn't be facing the mass of problems that beset us today.

[*AQuietPlace*]

A common misconception is that everyone who watches 'tv' is wallowing in junk. This simply isn't true. There really is a lot of good programming out there. I used to have that same conception. I thought that tv and cable was 99.999% garbage. I've discovered that isn't so.

You can also buy equipment that will eliminate the cursing, and there's even one that will cut out entire inappropriate scenes.

[ILG]

I have a tendency to be very wary of "group think" since leaving the upc. That includes world "group think". I think the media does an excellent job of getting people to "group think" and that includes many movies that get people to let down their guard and let things into their minds they otherwise wouldn't allow there. I don't think we should throw out the baby with the bathwater on this one.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by ILG

I have a tendency to be very wary of "group think" since leaving the upc. That includes world "group think". I think the media does an excellent job of getting people to "group think" and that includes many movies that get people to let down their guard and let things into their minds they otherwise wouldn't allow there. I don't think we should throw out the baby with the bathwater on this one.

Very, very true!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TomSlage

This forum post AMAZES me. Let me first preface my comments by saying I read only a couple pages of this 101 page post, so if I'm missing some inside joke, PLEASE forgive and enlighten me.

I am new here. I'm a 24 year-old independent Apostolic that attended a UPC church for several years and has since departed company (amiably, my dad started a daughter work church). I accepted my call to preach at 17. And while I have heard stories of people making statements such as Jeffrey's, I've never actually seen it for myself:



Wake up my dear Apostolic friends. How can you not see that this logic leads to the same grave error in doctrine that has plagued our movement's weakest leaders for centuries: "Well, the principles are good.."?

???

The biblical recollections of actual historical events that include the basest natures of man is meant for OUR LEARNING. In other words, DON'T have anything to do with these things. And these stories, may I remind you have NOTHING to do fictional entertainment. May I quote the scripture in Romans 1:32:

Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

"WOW, that movie featuring murder, adultery and hot makeout scenes was AWESOME."

???

And whatever happened to Phillipians 4:8:

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things.

My God. While we ARE in a world where sin and depravity surround us and which we (through the weakness of flesh) occasionally ingest into our spiritual bodies, SHOULD WE THEN EXCUSE IT, and even seek it out? Should we then say that illicit sex, or drug use, or any other vile work of the flesh is an effective conveyor of wholesome principles? Dear God is heaven, NO, and a thousand times NO.

This thread was started back in 2007. It's now 2010. Has so much water flowed under the bridge that there are no believers that WANT the old paths? Television is a very effective outlet of fleshly indulgence, period. It's strokes the carnal nature within us that wants NOTHING of holiness, NOTHING of purity, NOTHING of the fear of God.

Is there no room for fiction then? Can there be no entertainment in the Church? Of course we can have entertainment, it's not spoken against in the Bible. But entertainment that uses ANY form of the sin as a means of accomplishing it's purpose is WRONG. I'm not going to put on my judge's robe and determine the eternal destiny of a person that watches television, but believe you me, I KNOW that person has welcomed a mortal enemy to their salvation right into their living room.

I hope I have skipped over many pages of people mirroring what I have said here.

Tom,

Respectfully, I'm not so sure your application of Romans 1:32 (KJV) to those who read books, watch media, or otherwise partake in stories that "contain" evil are the same as Paul's indictment toward the Gentiles in Romans 1.

And it's not just learning vs. entertainment either. I recall a church that was hellbent against anyone being entertained. I found that humurous. Either these guys were going to be the most boring, lack-of-life earth dwellers, or they actually did believe in entertainment. And they did. Musicals. Music. Western books on tape (Louis Lamour). Books. Comedy sketches on the internet. And of course their private conversations were full of entertainment (even if it was about others in the church). I was relieved that they had more life to them.

I should clarify that entertainment isn't always about a good laugh either. Les Miserables is a great movie, musical and book. It's wonderful entertainment, yet has such a redemptive story. It educates, stimulates thought, promotes reflection and entertains!

And while you point out the Biblical stories that were orally carried down from generation-to-generation are for our learning, don't you think for a moment that Dad telling his son of the victories of Joshua and the Jericho wall were sermonettes. They would tell it just like you and I. For example: "They slashed their swords into their sides, sparing no life. When the walls fell, we could hear the cries of babies, women and fathers. Yet, with God's orders, we spared no life... except the woman Rahab." To think story-telling, which was very beneficial for learning, was not also entertainment, is to misunderstand storytelling alltogether. These weren't Western lectures. These were stories. To say "don't participate in these" is why they told them, then I suggest we have a whole new argument that's more based in Apologetics. That fact is, they were the story!

Are you really opposed to fictional stores? I should ask... are you also against reading fictional novels? Word Aflame only?

Is there no room for fiction then? Can there be no entertainment in the Church? Of course we can have entertainment, it's not spoken against in the Bible. But entertainment that uses ANY form of the sin as a means of accomplishing it's purpose is WRONG. I'm not going to put on my judge's robe and determine the eternal destiny of a person that watches television, but believe you me, I KNOW that person has welcomed a mortal enemy to their salvation right into their living room.

Any form of sin? All our characters must show perfection? How boring would that make a story. All stories have "bad guys" and "good guys." Can you give me an example? Even the dishonest characters in Adventures in Odyssey represent a "form of sin." I appreciate your last statement, and only interact with you in respect for your own position and conscience (Romans 14).

Does it become a "mortal enemy" in that it causes me to lose out in my relationship with Jesus? You believe that across-the-board? A mortal enemy, is one that brings death.

This is an age that needs principles. It needs Jesus. It needs to be a heart-response following Jesus. The walls some have built are porous, providing a false sense of security, and one that promotes hypocrisy. You call principles weak, I call them strong. And they may display situations of weakness, of people making mistakes, but in the end, they are sustained by the arms of Jesus, by the working of Sanctification and come to maturity. Just as a little child stumbles when trying to walk, some would prefer to push them around in a wheel chair, never giving them the opportunity to walk. Churches that preach prohibitions against a particular media in general have become "mortal enemies" to babies in the Lord. While I certainly don't stand in the judgement seat either over the issue, I will say the compulsory enforcement of such liberties is a tragedy just the same.

I appreciate your concern on the topic. And perhaps the TV is too much for you. Those who morally view the objects, and "any form of sin" will certainly have a problem if nothing else, but with their own conscience.

[Timmy]

If there were a movie of the entire Bible, accurately depicted in every detail, should a Christian watch it?