When God became a Socialist ....

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by n david

Apples and oranges ... God wasn't a Socialist and no scripture provides cover or gives backing to what BHO is doing.

Socialism is the curse of greed and excess. When the masses of a free and democratic people suffer socialism results. If our society took care of the estimated 50 million uninsured people in our country Obama's socialist agenda would have no traction. We have no one to blame for this turn of events but ourselves as a society. This is why it is IMPERATIVE that churches advocate and fund private and local means of charity, care, and social compassion. Does your church have a guide from the United Way to direct people to needed assistance? Does your church contribute healthily to a local foodbank, clothing closet, or religious hospital? Does your church STRONGLY advocate that members contribute to said charitable initiatives?

Sadly most churches only advocate that members give to the church... then the church builds bigger buildings and buys the pastor a lexus.

For example, when was the last time a church took up a collection to cover an unsinred member's medical bills? While this does happen, it's very rare.

[edjen01]

Why would anyone think that God wants us to live like He told a specific group of people to live in the OT? Follow the same logic with Hosea...or any of the prophets for that matter.

Just because God tells someone/some nation to do something does that mean He's telling everyone/every nation to do the same thing?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by edjen01

Why would anyone think that God wants us to live like He told a specific group of people to live in the OT? Follow the same logic with Hosea...or any of the prophets for that matter.

Just because God tells someone/some nation to do something does that mean He's telling everyone/every nation to do the same thing?

God operates on unchanging principles. We see that God demanded a tithe to care for the poor and needy in the OT and brought judgment, famine, and hardship upon them when they neglected the poor. (Perform a Biblegateway.com search on the word "poor" throughout the entire Bible and READ.) We will walk away understanding that God holds a society morally responsible for how it cares for it's poor and needy.

So what lays before us is a choice. Do we care for those in desperate need through private religious and charitable means by funding and advocating such initiatives or do we do nothing and fuel the fire that brings the curse of Socialism upon a nation?

We're facing this crisis because WE as a people have neglected millions in desperate need.

[edjen01]

"unchanging principles"....not sure I agree...but ok.

Did God also demand this "tithe" from the Eygptians....and every other nation of peoples on planet earth? My confusion is not caring for the poor & needy...Jesus taught this...my confusion comes from the idea that because God told a specific group of people to do a specific thing in the OT...that means we all should do it. Most I find who follow this mindset aren't very consistant with it.

[edjen01]

why do we need "private religious" advocates to care for the poor & needy? Please understand I am not opposed to giving money or using these organizations.

I believe...just my personal belief...that there are so many poor, hurting, needy people all around me...and Christ wants me to help them...not wait for a church or an organization or Obamacare to help them...Christ put me here on this planet to help them.

[Justin]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The prophets enforced these regulations. The books of Amos, Micah, and Malachi all offer rebukes for those who neglected and “oppressed” the poor. Oppression of the poor was turning the poor away from their “right” at the gate. One must understand that the tithe was specifically for land owners and ranchers. The tithe didn’t apply to tradesmen. This “land tax” was a 10% production tax on produce and herds. Every third year’s tithe was to be gathered into the storehouse specifically for the Levites, strangers, widows, poor, and orphans. This was the tithe that was neglected in Malachi wherein God rebuked the priests and the people for robbing Him in tithes and offerings. They robbed God by robbing the poor of their rights under the law.





Not necessarily true. Besides the tithe the children of Israel also had a head tax upon all males over 20 years of age. This head tax primarily went to fund the military. In addition to the tithe and this head tax various kings often issued “burdens” upon the people for various building projects and wars. Kings who levied heavy burdens upon the people were generally hated. Kings who lightened the people’s burdens were greatly loved. So there is some theology behind the notion of supporting tax cuts. However, those cuts never effected the poor tithe that sustained the poor and needy among them.





True. The tithe wasn’t an excessive or oppressive tax to support the priests and the needy. However, neglecting this tithe brought a curse upon the nation, for God promised to hear the cries of the poor and oppressed should they be neglected in the land.







I never heard of that so I’ll have to look into it. Can you provide a text for this one?



I do have to speak up here. GOD IS NOT A SOCIALIST. The economic philosophy espoused by Scripture and most historical Christian thinkers is a third-way economic position known as Distributism. Distributism opposes the notion of socialism in that socialism is essentially where the state owns and manages the means of productive property (production). Socialism also supports the notion of redistribution of overall wealth between the population. However, Distributism is also not les affair capitalism. Distributism believes in distributing land and productive property to smaller private businesses, cooperatives, guilds, and craftsman unions. These smaller social bodies defend their right to own their own means of production and productive property. Distributism disfavors the notion of large aggregate wealth embodied in monopolistic corporations or corporate conglomerates. The primary social structure of Distributism is the family. The goal of Distributism is to decentralize production and the ownership of productive property and distribute it to the local level (families and cooperatives). Distributism would break up Wal-Mart and pass laws that support the local family grocery and family tailors, craftsman, technicians, electronics shops, etc. The general philosophy of Distributism is that too much Capitalism will lead to too few capitalists as wealth becomes aggregated into the hands of a very few individuals or corporations. Distributism is also strongly opposed to usury or the excessive charging of interest. Distributism would advocate breaking up the corporate banking systems of the United States and replacing them with localized credit unions. Distributist thought was also the primary philosophical foundation for anti-trust laws preventing monopoly in the America economy. In fact credit unions have their origins in Distributist thought. Land owners, workers, and tradesmen would form guilds to represent their industry’s interests and for cooperatives wherein the means of production can be shared within the fraternity. This would help those without their own means of production until they can acquire the necessary skill and wealth to attain their own productive property and means of production. Distributist theory is largely isolationist but does acknowledge “Just War” theory for national defense. Charity is seen as the duty of a private society and is opposed to all forms of socialistic means of providing charitable relief for the poor and needy. Private religious bodies and charitable coalitions are seen as the primary vehicles for charity and social assistance. Any assistance provided by law in party by public funding would be kept localized. For example Distributist thought MIGHT allow for a state level public health insurance system yet be opposed to a federal public health insurance system. Distributists see Democracy as the primary and preferred means of social change as opposed to revolution and strongly supports the notion of a Constitutional Republic.

Ancient Israel’s agrarian economy better reflects Distributism than Socialism or total Capitalism. GOD IS NOT A SOCIALIST.

I love your work brother, but do you have sources?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by edjen01

why do we need "private religious" advocates to care for the poor & needy? Please understand I am not opposed to giving money or using these organizations.

I believe...just my personal belief...that there are so many poor, hurting, needy people all around me...and Christ wants me to help them...not wait for a church or an organization or Obamacare to help them...Christ put me here on this planet to help them.

You alone can't meet the need that many have. You can't pay my grandmother's medical bills. Nor can many provide the temporary care and provision for a single mother. We do far better working TOGETHER as a society. That was the principle embodied in God's Law when one considers the poor tithe and gleaning rights. God even rebuked Israel likening her to Sodom for not caring for her poor as a society.

One reason why we "wait" for private entities to help the needy is because they are lacking the financial support and volunteers that they need. I fear we often fall back on the notion that we as individuals should care for those in need because we'd rather have the option to ignore the problem or help them when we feel like it.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Justin

I love your work brother, but do you have sources?

Google it. I did my homework... you do yours. lol

Then you'll draw your own conclusions and your thoughts will indeed be your own.

[edjen01]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You alone can't meet the need that many have. You can't pay my grandmother's medical bills. Nor can many provide the temporary care and provision for a single mother. We do far better working TOGETHER as a society. That was the principle embodied in God's Law when one considers the poor tithe and gleaning rights. God even rebuked Israel likening her to Sodom for not caring for her poor as a society.

One reason why we "wait" for private entities to help the needy is because they are lacking the financial support and volunteers that they need. I fear we often fall back on the notion that we as individuals should care for those in need because we'd rather have the option to ignore the problem or help them when we feel like it.

I don't believe I am suppose to meet every need. I do believe God will give me the resources needed to meet the needs of those I can reach. While i cannot pay your grandmother's medical bills...maybe there is someone close who can. The idea of caring for the needy as a "society"...cannot work unless we begin as individuals caring for the needy. A society cannot have compassion if it is comprised of individuals who do not have compassion. When individuals are driven by compassion first...then a society will be compassionate...it cannot work the other way around.

Regarding God's Law...I only find 2....love God with every part of my being...and love my neighbor as my own flesh. no mention of "tithe" at all.

what happens when a "tithe" is not enough...Christ's law compells me to give all...not just 10%.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by edjen01

I don't believe I am suppose to meet every need. I do believe God will give me the resources needed to meet the needs of those I can reach. While i cannot pay your grandmother's medical bills...maybe there is someone close who can. The idea of caring for the needy as a "society"...cannot work unless we begin as individuals caring for the needy. A society cannot have compassion if it is comprised of individuals who do not have compassion. When individuals are driven by compassion first...then a society will be compassionate...it cannot work the other way around.

I agree and disagree. I agree in that compassion must be a personal value.

However, I also have experienced from personal experience that “vision” is necessary for a body of people. Often those with compassion feel, “What can I do? The need is so great. I’m just one person?” However, with a sacred social vision of compassion all who have compassion can come together and form a very broad based platform from which to do works of compassion. This was the way the early church functioned. They gathered together and took up offerings to relieve churches in famine, the needy, and widows. Why didn’t the church just focus on theology and doctrine? Why didn’t the church just become internalized and ascetic? It appears that the first century church had a vision for social compassion wherein the entire body was responsible for one another and those in desperate need. Their dedication to this vision was so great none of them felt that they owned anything exclusively; they shared ALL that they had. For example, if we lived according to the early church if a brother had need of a lawn mower he’d not have to beg an unsaved family member to borrow one. Nor would he have to beg a brother in the church to borrow one. Brothers in the church with lawn mowers would believe that their lawn mowers belonged to the entire body. Once our brother expressed his need provision of the mower would be readily provided and the mower returned to its steward. In the first two centuries those who weren’t Christian often wrote of Christians as being the most generous and united body when it came to helping those in need.

Also this social vision is prophetic. If you perform a search on the word “poor” on biblegateway.com you’ll discover that the Bible, namely the prophets, had A LOT to say about provision for the poor and often rebukes were issued not to individuals… but the entire nation. Therefore we see the principle that a society is responsible for it’s poor and hurting.

Regarding God's Law...I only find 2....love God with every part of my being...and love my neighbor as my own flesh. no mention of "tithe" at all.

The tithe was an agrarian income tax on the land’s increase. Only land owners who were farmers and herders were bound by the tithing law. Craftsman and tradesmen weren’t. No Christian is bound by a “tithe” law. However, the tithe does demonstrate the principle that a society should contribute to those measures providing the basic sustenance of the poor and needy. Socialists want to achieve this through taxation and government programs. Distributists want to achieve this through generous financial support, volunteer time, and advocacy for private entities that can meet these needs.

It’s also important to note that Jesus didn’t say that those were the ONLY two laws. Let’s look at the text,

Matthew 22:34-40
{22:34} But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put
the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
{22:35} Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked
[him a question, ]tempting him, and saying, {22:36}
Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
{22:37} Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy
God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy
mind. {22:38} This is the first and great commandment.
{22:39} And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy
neighbour as thyself. {22:40} On these two commandments
hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus didn’t dismiss the Law of God. Jesus simply explained that these two laws embody the two primary principles found in the Law of God. Here’s a break down:

How do you love God will all your heart?

• Put God before every thing in your life.
  
• You don't adore idols or dabble in the occult.
  
• Reverence the name of Jesus.
  
• Remember the Sabbath rest as a time of worship.

How do you love your neighbor as yourself?

• Starts with the home, love and honor your parents. A child who cannot love and honor parents will not love and honor others.
  
• You value life and refuse to murder in word or deed.
  
• You honor your vows by loving your wife and not committing adultery.
  
• You respect the property of others and don't steal.
  
• You're truthful and honest with your neighbors.
  
• You're thankful for what you have and not consumed with attaining that which belongs to your neighbor.

.

These principles are best articulated as follows:

I
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me
II
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image
III
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord
thy God in vain, for the Lord will not
hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain
IV
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy
V
Honor thy father and thy mother,
that thy days may be long upon the land
which the Lord thy God giveth thee
VI
Thou shalt not murder
VII
Thou shalt not commit adultery
VIII
Thou shalt not steal
IX
Thou shalt not bear false witness
against thy neighbor
X
Thou shalt not covet

Notice that the Law of God hangs on the two commandments of Christ. You can’t just say love God and your neighbor without defining what that entails.

what happens when a "tithe" is not enough...Christ's law compells me to give all...not just 10%.

Christ way demands that we give ALL.