God's Grace, Love or Mercy will not SAVE you ...

[deltaguitar]

Legalist, can you show me anyone who doesn't believe in the commandant to be baptized. The problem is not the commandment but your linking it up with new birth.

We all agree that we should obey God's commandments. The difference is you have a specific commandmant that we must do to acheive our salvation.

The problem is you have a doctrine that requires baptism for new birth and if you say we aren't saved by our obedience but we obey because we are saved then your whole three-step doctrine crumbles.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

1Jn 3:20 for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything.
1Jn 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
1Jn 3:22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
1Jn 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

Joh 15:6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

Context is of believers in the vine thus why they whither up as a they are seperated from the vine.

That is because your theology is at a false dilemma and a contrary usage of terms to how the Bible presents it. You are not unbirthed... that is nonsense... You are though judged and cast out!

OSAS I suppose you believe. You are a servant to whom you obey! One leads to death and the other to life. Also the Prodigal Son negated his sonship by doing his own thing. Until he turned and came to his father did his Father declare him "ALIVE AGAIN"

His words not mine get used to reading the Bible.

Again pathetic emotionalism that doesn't deal with scipture and one sided to love. God is a God of love and justice. Even toward his once children! Again we are servants to whom we obey.

Again very poor argument. God doesn't put us into hell WE PUT OURSELVES in HELL! You are appealing to emotion verses the reality of sin. Technically we are all his children saved or unsaved. He is our CREATOR thus go and jump on your universalist bandwagon that you just put yourself in.

It is clear, you avoid the questions posed to cover your heartless, and dogmatic stance. Your God has club, and He beats his victims and disowns them when they fail.

Come on, just answer the question...Would you cast your children into Hell? You're afraid to answer this because you know what would happen to you on this Forum.

God made us Parents, and His perfect design is the Family. A Father, Mother, and Children are the design that clearly opens the door to Reality, not Religion, which you are bound by. You are blinded by Religion and are afraid to admit that. I'm sure you would have run the little ones off, considering them a nusiance like the disciples did.

Religion always becomes a heartless, bitter, empty approach to God, filled with do's and dont's and the price WE must pay to be saved.

God has tried to become the Father of our lives, but Religion always steps in to corrupt this concept. Man hurls people into Hell when they stand up and say NO or decide to uncover the Political and Corrupted ideas that have plagued a specific Faith.

Like I've stated in previous posts, Eternal Hell was not really taught to mainstream society until the Catholic Church was birthed. The Jews did not teach of such a place, and the other cultures that did in Ancient times were steeped in Greek mythology and Ancient Egypt. Research it for yourself.

You say my theology is false, but you can't and won't cover the Facts about Man, the real, historical origin of the Bible, and the many other complications invovling the Saved/Lost issue. It's always about now, not about the majority of mankind who has never read or known what a Bible is.

What about Native Americans? What about those who never could read, or lived in places untouched by Christian or Jewish ideals? According to you, they're all going to burn! You might have condemned those in the Salem Witch Trials. How about the 1000's of people executed in Europe for heresy and treason? Those bound by Religion stood with righteous indigination, slaughtering these innocent people with a Bible in their arms.

You need a history lesson.

It's time we pull our head out of the sand and find true mercy.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

It is clear, you avoid the questions posed to cover your heartless, and dogmatic stance. Your God has club, and He beats his victims and disowns them when they fail.

Come on, just answer the question...Would you cast your children into Hell? You're afraid to answer this because you know what would happen to you on this Forum.

God made us Parents, and His perfect design is the Family. A Father, Mother, and Children are the design that clearly opens the door to Reality, not Religion, which you are bound by. You are blinded by Religion and are afraid to admit that. I'm sure you would have run the little ones off, considering them a nusiance like the disciples did.

Religion always becomes a heartless, bitter, empty approach to God, filled with do's and dont's and the price WE must pay to be saved.

God has tried to become the Father of our lives, but Religion always steps in to corrupt this concept. Man hurls people into Hell when they stand up and say NO or decide to uncover the Political and Corrupted ideas that have plagued a specific Faith.

Like I've stated in previous posts, Eternal Hell was not really taught to mainstream society until the Catholic Church was birthed. The Jews did not teach of such a place, and the other cultures that did in Ancient times were steeped in Greek mythology and Ancient Egypt. Research it for yourself.

You say my theology is false, but you can't and won't cover the Facts about Man, the real, historical origin of the Bible, and the many other complications invovling the Saved/Lost issue. It's always about now, not about the majority of mankind who has never read or known what a Bible is.

What about Native Americans? What about those who never could read, or lived in places untouched by Christian or Jewish ideals? According to you, they're all going to burn! You might have condemned those in the Salem Witch Trials. How about the 1000's of people executed in Europe for heresy and treason? Those bound by Religion stood with righteous indigination, slaughtering these innocent people with a Bible in their arms.

You need a history lesson.

It's time we pull our head out of the sand and find true mercy.

This post typifies all that Yeshua, the prophets and apostles warned us about. The epitome of trying to overthrow faith in Gods word and remake YHWH into the image of man.

[BobDylan]

Heb 5:9

"he bacame the author of salvation to those who obey him...."

Obedience gives us access to the full benefits of Gods mercy, and love.... The disobedient will ultimately have eternal access to God's judgment. The statement doesn't sit well with your theology, but LS statement is not unscrptural. You cannot be saved apart from obedience to the faith....

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Heb 5:9

"he bacame the author of salvation to those who obey him...."

Obedience gives us access to the full benefits of Gods mercy, and love.... The disobedient will ultimately have eternal access to God's judgment. The statement doesn't sit well with your theology, but LS statement is not unscrptural. You cannot be saved apart from obedience to the faith....

But what comes first...the love and grace of God extended toward a sinful man/woman or...obedience to hearing the gospel?
LS left out the love of God.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

But what comes first...the love and grace of God extended toward a sinful man/woman or...obedience to hearing the gospel?
LS left out the love of God.

I didn't notice the statement Dan is up in arms about. Absolutely the love grace and mercy of God are involved in ushering an individual into a place where they can choose to obey him... However, the saving grace of God, as opposed to general grace, is available only "through faith", which is obedience. Our choice to obey in response to the message of the gospel is the one thing that invites God's saving grace into our lives. He stands at the door and
knocks... Unless and individual opens the door, he will not come in... "we are saved by grace, through faith...." No faith, no grace....

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Legalist, can you show me anyone who doesn't believe in the commandant to be baptized. The problem is not the commandment but your linking it up with new birth.

We all agree that we should obey God's commandments. The difference is you have a specific commandmant that we must do to acheive our salvation.

The problem is you have a doctrine that requires baptism for new birth and if you say we aren't saved by our obedience but we obey because we are saved then your whole three-step doctrine crumbles.

??? I believe we are saved by obedience to his offering and will all through out our life. I don't see baptism as a problem but your doctrine makes baptism a problem be default which in the end makes your overall view skewed and wrong on it's foundation. Not sure what you are reading but you def have not understood me. If it is my fault I apologize maybe you need to reread what I said. Baptism is essential and is the result of turning to God. You will never here the phrase we obey because we are saved. No we obey because we are in covenant to do of which we will be judged and saved if we paid the price required.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This post typifies all that Yeshua, the prophets and apostles warned us about. The epitome of trying to overthrow faith in Gods word and remake YHWH into the image of man.

scary isn't it

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

It is clear, you avoid the questions posed to cover your heartless, and dogmatic stance. Your God has club, and He beats his victims and disowns them when they fail.

Come on, just answer the question...Would you cast your children into Hell? You're afraid to answer this because you know what would happen to you on this Forum.

God made us Parents, and His perfect design is the Family. A Father, Mother, and Children are the design that clearly opens the door to Reality, not Religion, which you are bound by. You are blinded by Religion and are afraid to admit that. I'm sure you would have run the little ones off, considering them a nusiance like the disciples did.

Religion always becomes a heartless, bitter, empty approach to God, filled with do's and dont's and the price WE must pay to be saved.

God has tried to become the Father of our lives, but Religion always steps in to corrupt this concept. Man hurls people into Hell when they stand up and say NO or decide to uncover the Political and Corrupted ideas that have plagued a specific Faith.

Like I've stated in previous posts, Eternal Hell was not really taught to mainstream society until the Catholic Church was birthed. The Jews did not teach of such a place, and the other cultures that did in Ancient times were steeped in Greek mythology and Ancient Egypt. Research it for yourself.

You say my theology is false, but you can't and won't cover the Facts about Man, the real, historical origin of the Bible, and the many other complications invovling the Saved/Lost issue. It's always about now, not about the majority of mankind who has never read or known what a Bible is.

What about Native Americans? What about those who never could read, or lived in places untouched by Christian or Jewish ideals? According to you, they're all going to burn! You might have condemned those in the Salem Witch Trials. How about the 1000's of people executed in Europe for heresy and treason? Those bound by Religion stood with righteous indigination, slaughtering these innocent people with a Bible in their arms.

You need a history lesson.

It's time we pull our head out of the sand and find true mercy.

you need some scripture and answer/respond to the scriptures presented that I pointed you to. Do you believe in hell at all? We are all God's children by definition. If my child was wicked... would I hate it? Yes but in the end God is HOLY and HE IS JUST. How about that God killing Ananias and his wife? How about God killing children of pagan nations. Will God send his children who have denied him for a love of the world? YES HE WILL! The Prodigal Son was DEAD TO HIS FATHER! Ever read Jesus teachings instead some of some Dr. Love baptist junk? God's love is awesome but he is not just love. Obviously you don't read them to often or this ALL LOVE ALL THE TIME LOVE AFFAIR you belive God is would cease to exist. How about pick up the Bible and read about his Covenant people in the OT and his judgment against those who simply took a few things they where not suppsed to. How about parables of about the seed and falling away. Quit making God some image that is not real.

Respond to the scipture instead of some emotional RANT of ignorance that is quite insane.

1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

I didn't notice the statement Dan is up in arms about. Absolutely the love grace and mercy of God are involved in ushering an individual into a place where they can choose to obey him... However, the saving grace of God, as opposed to general grace, is available only "through faith", which is obedience. Our choice to obey in response to the message of the gospel is the one thing that invites God's saving grace into our lives. He stands at the door and
knocks... Unless and individual opens the door, he will not come in... "we are saved by grace, through faith...." No faith, no grace....

God's grace is involved in every step of the way from leading us to repentance to our glorification. I'm not a Calvinist but I do believe that no one can come to Christ except the Father draw him. Therefore God makes the first move in our salvation, not only because He became man and died for our sins but He also because of his goodness and grace draws every man to himself.

You can read again what Dan quoted LS as saying below in quote box.

"The Love of God, does not save you.

I'm sorry if that disturbs your theology

The love of God and mercy does not save you ....

obedience to the DOCTRINE is what saves you!"

You simply cannot take the love and mercy of God out of the salvation equation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: