Modesty as described by the General Youth Division

[missourimary]

The few scriptures we have on modesty... sometimes we should teach precepts rather than drawing lines.

Can there be modesty without moderation? And I'm not talking about looking homely. I'm repeatedly complimented by the world for how I dress. But I'm laughed at in the church for not looking "good enough". I've been told many, many things that I should do if I want to "get a man" by people in church. Each involves clothes that I feel uncomfortable in. Why should I feel pressured by my friends in church to wear something I feel convicted against?

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

You seem to define modesty by those terms, when that wasn't even Paul's intent.

Your question: "How can dressing up to look nice ever be immodest?" I ask you that back. Can it in your opinion? This is exactly the question we are answering. We aren't slamming dressing up!

Re hair. Another interesting subject. Hair is sensual, jewish women and early Christians covered it. Interesting that we interpret uncut, remove the covering and flaunt our long hair (something that would be shocking in the first century). Hardly modest. BUT... BUT... I won't hijack the thread. Just think that COULD be a great tangent!

A women "professing godliness" isn't going to walk around with her cleavage showing and her pants so tight that she has to lay on the bed to zip them up. So, yes, I define modesty in that way. After I got in church I gave one of my sisters a Liz Claiborne pink, knit dress that plunged in the front and back. She called it my "Jezebel" dress. LOL!

I agree with MB that judging others while dripping with gold sequins and glass beads is hypocritical. Totally! But not everyone is doing that.

When we go clothes shopping, how in the world are we going to be happy wearing navy gaberdine? LOL!

Look around and see what is available! Beautiful clothing, purses and shoes. So, as long as I'm not letting someone get a peak up my hemline or a full frontal view, how am I being immodest in my choices?

And on the hair. Yes, hair is sexy. But, some women with short hair can be sexy too. Ask the men here about Catherine Zeta. They don't care what she wears. She's just sexy anyway in their opinion. LOL! Get my point?

[Jeffrey]

Oh the pouty lips has been the trend EVERYWHERE for awhile. Usually just when taking pictures. Innocent, I think. Very teenage girlish. And... slightly annoying LOL

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I was discussing this with a friend... we agreed that many times we do this to overcompensate for not wearing makeup. We want to look pretty. It's natural for women to want to look beautiful. And since makeup is forbidden for us, we sometimes go overboard on what is acceptable to compensate.

(not broad-brushing, but it's true in many cases)

There's probably some merit to that. Women feel they can't fit into the worldly mold of beauty, so they create their idea of beauty. It is a culture, no doubt about it. It's not an immodest culture--just an odd one, sometimes. As you said above, "it's natural for women to want to look beautiful." It seems then, somewhat unfair to call a woman immodest who is trying to look as beautiful as possible within boundaries she didn't personally set.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Having a discussion about what modesty truly means, and how we can apply it, isn't acting like Eeyore.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I took the Eeyore reference to be about people who walk around with the "woe is me" complex in plain, drab clothing and call that "modesty." (Or humility)

Okay, I might have said, "Chicken Little". Sometimes the tone of the conversation comes across as "The sky is falling!!!!" I just can't get that depressed over it. LOL!

Anyway, when I read some threads, I read them like it's Eeyore talking. You know his tone of voice? Try it! It's very entertaining!" LOL!

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

There's probably some merit to that. Women feel they can't fit into the worldly mold of beauty, so they create their idea of beauty. It is a culture, no doubt about it. It's not an immodest culture--just an odd one, sometimes. As you said above, "it's natural for women to want to look beautiful." It seems then, somewhat unfair to call a woman immodest who is trying to look as beautiful as possible within boundaries she didn't personally set.

Totally agree with you here. And basically it's a personal preference or some may say a conviction. I'm not going to carry a red Prada bag. It's just too glaring and I would feel uncomfortable.

[Jeffrey]

PO: Yes, but long hair is sensual. That was my point. What hair do they use on shampoo commercials? Supermodels? Cover girls? All long hair (normally).

Tight jeans? Maybe. Is it attracting an inordinate amount of attention? Cleavage lines? I personally think it's not modest (I'm a guy and know where my eyes are driven). But, the extent of that will be up to the wearer. This doesn't mean tank-tops, shorts, shorter skirts, etc are immodest. Modest and appropriateness go hand-in-hand. Most of those things are immodest at church or at work, but on the weekend out at a theme park, probably okay.

AQP asked some great questions about modesty one day. We were searching the scriptures for the Biblical "skin patrol." The Bible is silent. Most of the skin was controlled by custom and culture. It still is. This is why it may not be immodest to be an African man with no shirt on (or a Greek for that matter).

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Oh the pouty lips has been the trend EVERYWHERE for awhile. Usually just when taking pictures. Innocent, I think. Very teenage girlish. And... slightly annoying LOL

It is annoying. I just pointed out to my husband a whole slew of pics our youngest daughter just put on facebook, and in every one of them she's got the pouty lips.

I told my husband it was the "Poochie Lip Disease Phase." I hate to call attention to it, since she'll move on to something else within a matter or weeks, and saying something about it will only serve to hurt her fragile, pre-teen self esteem.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Haha! Well, you always have to have at least one retro fashionista, don't you? Remember--we're getting older. What looks weird to us might not look weird to everyone else. And to be fair, one bun is pretty much equal to another, no matter whether it's on the back of the head or on the side. At least, in the eyes of the secular world, and its opinion of "weirdness."

No, trust me. It was WEIRD. And it wasn't a bun. It wasn't even worn up. Just very elaborate curls, pinned very high, etc. Even in Pentecostal circles, her hair always gets stares. It's extremely elaborate. And she wasn't a young girl, she is in her 30s.

Yes, I HAVE seen outlandish, and as Jeffrey so kindly pointed out earlier, it brings to mind a Paris catwalk. LOL!!! Which really means "edgy fashion." But I have to be practical about these things, because I have two daughters. Hannah isn't really into dressing up--but more than she used to be. However, she has long, thick, heavy blond hair that is a lot easier to handle if it's put up, and so even when she's dressed casually, her hair is up. What do you suggest? That when she's dressed casually she can only do a ponytail or braids?

No. Hair can be worn up, and still not look like you're going to the prom. Although that's really not even my point. It's just that very, very elaborate hairdos are going to draw attention when they're paired with a jean skirt. As you mentioned in another post, it's about dressing appropriately for the occasion. Also, see my other point below.

Sarah, the younger girl--well, the other day she wore these new high top tennis shoes that she adores with a pink-dotted t-shirt, a turquoise corduroy knee-length straight skirt, white leggings with neon colored peace signs all over them and a glittery rainbow colored headband!!!!! What can I do? It's Sarah. LOL!!!! I'm doing good to keep her from flashing the peace sign at everyone she meets and discourage her from dancing to hip-hop music (at least in public). I pick my battles. Does she stand out? Uh...yes. Does she put anyone off with her...er...flair for fashion? No, because the kid is gregarious, funny and kind (except when she overdoes the wit for comic effect), and doesn't meet a stranger. My only recent rule to try to keep her in line, fashionably speaking, is no more than three colors at a time.

Looking at the outward person to ascertain a person's character is a secular habit that Christians should avoid. I shudder to think that my daughters would be harshly judged for dressing this way or that way, when in truth they're both an absolute pleasure to know (of course I have to say that! ), and both of them love God with all their little ♥'s.

Look at groups of young people the same way you would look at your own kids--see kids--not fashionistas. See the person--not the dress. They're at youth convention instead of out with their friends drinking, doing drugs, having sex, etc. There's something to be happy about. I'd rather they be at youth convention obnoxiously dressed than not.

I wasn't even referring to young people. I give young people a LOT of latitude to be outrageous and be themselves. I'm talking about middle-aged women. Once again, not women who dress up, but women who dress to draw attention to themselves. Ones who cause even Pentecostals to do a double-take.

Just don't do that and tell me I can't wear a wedding ring.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Totally agree with you here. And basically it's a personal preference or some may say a conviction. I'm not going to carry a red Prada bag. It's just too glaring and I would feel uncomfortable.

But maybe a black one?