Proof Of Soul Sleep

[DerechHashem]

Originally Posted by mfblume

SOUL SLEEP; categorized under subjects that do not matter if they were true or not, except that Paul said absence from his body meant presence with the Lord.

(...ducking and running).

When a man dies, he is asleep and does not awake until the end of time.

You suggest Paul states that the very moment he dies he will be with Christ?

Phil 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Phil 1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
Phil 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Phil 1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
2 Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Cor 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Jesus equated death with sleep, so Paul is saying that should he die, he would sleep the sleep of death, and next see Jesus Christ after the resurrection.

To Paul, however, the passing of time after his death would be as an instant, the blink of an eye, and his next thing he would know it would be the second coming, and the resurrection of all the righteous saints.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When does Jesus receive us?

Jesus says it will be at His second coming, not at the moment of death.

Since the dead are asleep in the grave, what do they know, what are they conscious of?

If Paul were stating it as you say would not the Patriarch David be with the Lord?

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. . .

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

King David is still in the grave. He is still asleep, still dead, not in heaven.

Just a thought.

[DerechHashem]

Originally Posted by easter

WHERE IS PARADISE?
Paradise is located in the third Heaven
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,(whether in the body,I can not tell;or whether out of the body,I cannot tell:God knowethsuch an one caught up to THE THIRD HEAVEN.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man,(whether in the body,or out of the body,I cannot tell:God knoweth
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into PARADISE,and heard unspeakable words,which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

JESUS DYING PRIOR TO THE THIEF?
Jerusalem have 12 hour days.The thieves legs were broken and removed from the cross so they could be taken away.There is no scripture stating the thief lived another day after Jesus.You do not know if he even lived another hour after being removed from the cross.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore,because it was the preparation,that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day,(for that sabbath day was an high day,)besought Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away.
As far as Jesus being in the tomb for three days,he was but his spirit descended into Sheol and preached to the spirits that were being held in prison,so they might could hear the gospel.
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

Paradise is located in the third Heaven
2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,(whether in the body,I can not tell;or whether out of the body,I cannot tell:God knowethsuch an one caught up to THE THIRD HEAVEN.
2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man,(whether in the body,or out of the body,I cannot tell:God knoweth
2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into PARADISE,and heard unspeakable words,which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paradise is mentioned 3 times in scripture:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

The above verse says the tree of life is in the middle of paradise.

Right?

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, . . .

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

That says the tree of life is in the New Jerusalem.

Right?

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

That refers to the New Jerusalem, which is the Father's house, which is in heaven.

Right?

Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

That says the New Jerusalem comes to earth from heaven.

Right?

The Bible teaches that paradise and heaven are the exact same place!

[DerechHashem]

JESUS DYING PRIOR TO THE THIEF?
Jerusalem have 12 hour days.The thieves legs were broken and removed from the cross so they could be taken away.There is no scripture stating the thief lived another day after Jesus.You do not know if he even lived another hour after being removed from the cross.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore,because it was the preparation,that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day,(for that sabbath day was an high day,)besought Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away.
As far as Jesus being in the tomb for three days,he was but his spirit descended into Sheol and preached to the spirits that were being held in prison,so they might could hear the gospel.
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

Jerusalem has 24 hours cycle days, SUNSET to SUNSET.

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Matthew 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

Mark 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the whole land until the ninth hour.
Mark 15:33 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Mark 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,
Mark 15:44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling [unto him] the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Luke 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
Luke 23:52 This [man] went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
Luke 23:54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away.
John 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
John 19:42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation [day]; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.

Jesus told the thief on the cross that He would be with him that day in paradise!

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Remember, the punctuation has been supplied in the translation and is not present in the original texts, so while generally the bible may be inspired, punctuation is not.

Let me just move one comma:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

In English that sounds stilted and awkward. It would be properly interpreted as:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him,
Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

It is a promise that the thief will see paradise, but it was not a promise to be fulfilled that day.

But that is unfair, you say, right?

It is not what the Bible means. You are twisting it to make it fit your own premise.

Look at the following verse from John:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Here Jesus is very clearly telling Mary Magdalene that he has not yet ascended to heaven, and this was said on Sunday!

So He could not possibly have ascended to heaven with the thief on Friday afternoon.

Jesus had spent the entire Sabbath at rest, asleep in death in the tomb, to be resurrected on Sunday morning by His Father in a triumphal victory over death.

As far as Jesus being in the tomb for three days,he was but his spirit descended into Sheol and preached to the spirits that were being held in prison,so they might could hear the gospel.
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

This is a popular interpretation (Roman Catholics) of the passage, in conjunction with the Apostles' Creed, that Jesus, after His death on the cross, descended into Hades/Hell/prison to preach to spirits there.

Who are the spirits in prison?

Take a close look at the passage in 1st Peter and see just what it is really saying.

Verse 18 contains a parallelism, the same thought expressed twice.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. . .

Jesus Christ who was sinless, died once on the cross for sinners, and was resurrected to reconcile sinners with God,

. . . being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

He died the death all we mortals must die, but He was raised to life by the Holy Spirit.

The parallelism above states twice that Christ died and was resurrected.

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

The word translated preached G2784. kerusso, is also properly translated as proclaim. See Rev 5:2. So it does not necessarily refer to preaching the gospel.

Verse 19 says that in His resurrected state (By which), Christ went and proclaimed his victory over the spirits in prison.

So who are these spirits?

Verse 22 parallels and restates verse 19:

1 Pet 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The spirits in prison refers not to people, but fallen angels and authorities and powers who are also spoken of as being chained:

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Col 2:15 And [by His resurrection] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them [fallen angels] in it.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

1 Peter 3:20 and 21 speak of Noah's experience with the flood, and Christ's death and resurrection, as types of baptism, in which the sinner can gain, and proclaim, victory over sin and death:

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Pet 3:21 The like figure [of death and resurrection] whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:18-20 does not teach that Jesus preached to spirits of dead people in Hell or purgatory after His death on the cross, it simply does not validate a belief in an intermediate "prison" or limbo for immortal souls between death and heaven, as some teach today.

When Christ died on the cross, He was buried, and did nothing until His resurrection.

He went nowhere and preached to no one during the time period between His crucifixion and resurrection. Dead is dead.

Most all the teachings today was started in the Roman Catholic Church.

[DerechHashem]

Originally Posted by easter

The saints walking the streets of Jerusalem are in Paradise awaiting the day the Father says"Son go get your bride" and on that day in a twinkling of an eye,these old testament saints will receive their glorified bodies.

If your already immortal (spirit) in paradise what do you need a body for?

Also 1Corinthians 15:51-55 disagrees with you, it states the day of the resurrection is when you receive your IMMORTAL, IMPERISHABLE, UNCORRUPTABLE REWARD!

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (those that are alive). For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?

This is when you PUT ON IMMORTALITY! No one has it now.

Only God is IMMORTAL right now.

1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen

Immortality is something we SEEK for!

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

[easter]

Originally Posted by DerechHashem

Jerusalem has 24 hours cycle days, SUNSET to SUNSET.



Jesus told the thief on the cross that He would be with him that day in paradise!

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Remember, the punctuation has been supplied in the translation and is not present in the original texts, so while generally the bible may be inspired, punctuation is not.

Let me just move one comma:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

In English that sounds stilted and awkward. It would be properly interpreted as:

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him,
Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.

It is a promise that the thief will see paradise, but it was not a promise to be fulfilled that day.

But that is unfair, you say, right?

It is not what the Bible means. You are twisting it to make it fit your own premise.

Look at the following verse from John:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Here Jesus is very clearly telling Mary Magdalene that he has not yet ascended to heaven, and this was said on Sunday!

So He could not possibly have ascended to heaven with the thief on Friday afternoon.

Jesus had spent the entire Sabbath at rest, asleep in death in the tomb, to be resurrected on Sunday morning by His Father in a triumphal victory over death.






This is a popular interpretation (Roman Catholics) of the passage, in conjunction with the Apostles' Creed, that Jesus, after His death on the cross, descended into Hades/Hell/prison to preach to spirits there.

Who are the spirits in prison?

Take a close look at the passage in 1st Peter and see just what it is really saying.

Verse 18 contains a parallelism, the same thought expressed twice.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God. . .

Jesus Christ who was sinless, died once on the cross for sinners, and was resurrected to reconcile sinners with God,

. . . being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

He died the death all we mortals must die, but He was raised to life by the Holy Spirit.

The parallelism above states twice that Christ died and was resurrected.

1 Pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

The word translated preached G2784. kerusso, is also properly translated as proclaim. See Rev 5:2. So it does not necessarily refer to preaching the gospel.

Verse 19 says that in His resurrected state (By which), Christ went and proclaimed his victory over the spirits in prison.

So who are these spirits?

Verse 22 parallels and restates verse 19:

1 Pet 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The spirits in prison refers not to people, but fallen angels and authorities and powers who are also spoken of as being chained:

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Col 2:15 And [by His resurrection] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them [fallen angels] in it.

Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

2 Pet 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

1 Peter 3:20 and 21 speak of Noah's experience with the flood, and Christ's death and resurrection, as types of baptism, in which the sinner can gain, and proclaim, victory over sin and death:

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Pet 3:21 The like figure [of death and resurrection] whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Peter 3:18-20 does not teach that Jesus preached to spirits of dead people in Hell or purgatory after His death on the cross, it simply does not validate a belief in an intermediate "prison" or limbo for immortal souls between death and heaven, as some teach today.

When Christ died on the cross, He was buried, and did nothing until His resurrection.

He went nowhere and preached to no one during the time period between His crucifixion and resurrection. Dead is dead.

Most all the teachings today was started in the Roman Catholic Church.

OH my goodness surely you don't believe that the scripture in 1 Peter is talking about purgatory or limbo.Then again perhaps you do.I don't hold to that theory either.
Death by crucifixion was a slow agonizing death.Usually took about a couple of days for someone to die.However Jesus died in a much shorter period then it normally took.So in order to make sure he was dead the soldiers pierced his side.Fulfilling prophecies concerning his death because not one of his bones were broken.However the thieves were not dead and why do you think they broke the thieve's legs?So they couldn't run away?
Death by crucifixion was a slow,horrible death.Hanging on a cross,after a while puts an enormous strain on the heart and lungs.The lungs grow weak and in order to get enough air into the lungs the person would have to push their body weight up.To do this the person would push their body up by using their legs.Hence the legs were broken to speed up the death.
Study up on the horrible way our savior suffered for our sins.Read up on the method of crucifixion.

[easter]

So you think Jerusalem has 24 hour days?Not during the time of Jesus!

John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not TWELVE HOURS in a day?If any man walk in the day,he stumbleth not,because he seeth the light of the world.

Before making statements that Jewish people do not have 12 hour days,study Jewish history.

[easter]

These long winded post do become tiresome.I like to keep it short and to the point.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

I have yet to have a soul-sleeping doctrine believing individual to explain this verse.They will pull out all stops and twist scripture or just slice scripture up and piece it back together to make it fit the theory of soul-sleep.Never mind the parts they leave out.These parts don't fit the ideal of soul-sleep so in order to justify the missing scripture they make excuse that it's man's error.

So I do wonder how you'll slice and dice this verse up,or explain it?

[easter]

Originally Posted by mfblume

SOUL SLEEP; categorized under subjects that do not matter if they were true or not, except that Paul said absence from his body meant presence with the Lord.

(...ducking and running).

Hey Brother Blume!
Your right and these discussions don't edify no one.
Absence from the body,present with the Lord

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by easter

Hey Brother Blume!
Your right and these discussions don't edify no one.
Absence from the body,present with the Lord

Right after a long nap!

[easter]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Right after a long nap!

Ha,Ha