Ogia,
The emboldened part is an interesting comment that I've heard quite a bit. Could you elaborate on what you mean by "greasy grace"?
My perception of it is exactly what I spoke to a co-worker (Baptist) about at lunch just now. It's this belief that while there is sacrifice in serving the Lord there is no real sacrifice seen in what is called the American "church". It's all about blessings, prosperity, feel good messages, etc. As we talked, we both concluded that no where do you find the Lord offering anything like these denominational/non-denominational "preachers" are offering. He offered persecution, suffering, no place to lay one's head, and even death.
"Greasy grace" offers none of that, for it did it would scare the adherent to death and run them off, much like the Lord did when people came up and proclaimed that they wanted to know what it took to be a disciple. His answers were not pretty or appealing.
My Baptist friend agreed.
Hope that helps.
__________________
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. [Zechariah 14:9]
Ignorance of the Identity of the One True God is not a valid reason to practice idolatry.
My perception of it is exactly what I spoke to a co-worker (Baptist) about at lunch just now. It's this belief that while there is sacrifice in serving the Lord there is no real sacrifice seen in what is called the American "church". It's all about blessings, prosperity, feel good messages, etc. As we talked, we both concluded that no where do you find the Lord offering anything like these denominational/non-denominational "preachers" are offering. He offered persecution, suffering, no place to lay one's head, and even death.
"Greasy grace" offers none of that, for it did it would scare the adherent to death and run them off, much like the Lord did when people came up and proclaimed that they wanted to know what it took to be a disciple. His answers were not pretty or appealing.
My Baptist friend agreed.
Hope that helps.
Thank you for your response. I am trying to be careful here and hope my thoughts are clear as to what I am trying to say.
I've talked, through the years, with preachers, evangelists, etc. about what we convey as a church. The overwhelming answer is that - underneath who we are and what we do it comes across as more "judgment" and not "mercy and love".
I realize that the scripture says that the "Word of God is powerful and sharper than any two edged sword piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".
I think that with the strictness or line we want to walk, we also need to be careful not to bath that sword in blood before we wield it.
I'm thinking of the times in private prayer, in repentance, when He comes to me and gently instructs me and takes my hand, so to speak, and causes me to rise again.
When it is not conveyed in that same way over the pulpit then I become confused, hurt and wondering why this God that I serve is different in the two respective places - church and home.
Thank you for your response. I am trying to be careful here and hope my thoughts are clear as to what I am trying to say.
I've talked, through the years, with preachers, evangelists, etc. about what we convey as a church. The overwhelming answer is that - underneath who we are and what we do it comes across as more "judgment" and not "mercy and love".
I realize that the scripture says that the "Word of God is powerful and sharper than any two edged sword piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".
I think that with the strictness or line we want to walk, we also need to be careful not to bath that sword in blood before we wield it.
I'm thinking of the times in private prayer, in repentance, when He comes to me and gently instructs me and takes my hand, so to speak, and causes me to rise again.
When it is not conveyed in that same way over the pulpit then I become confused, hurt and wondering why this God that I serve is different in the two respective places - church and home.
I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
Very good post, PO!
__________________
Master of Science in Applied Disgruntled Religious Theorist Wrangling
PhD in Petulant Tantrum Quelling
Dean of the School of Hard Knocks
Thank you for your response. I am trying to be careful here and hope my thoughts are clear as to what I am trying to say.
I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
You were clear and I do believe I understand.
Quote:
I've talked, through the years, with preachers, evangelists, etc. about what we convey as a church. The overwhelming answer is that - underneath who we are and what we do it comes across as more "judgment" and not "mercy and love".
I realize that the scripture says that the "Word of God is powerful and sharper than any two edged sword piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".
I think that with the strictness or line we want to walk, we also need to be careful not to bath that sword in blood before we wield it.
I'm thinking of the times in private prayer, in repentance, when He comes to me and gently instructs me and takes my hand, so to speak, and causes me to rise again.
When it is not conveyed in that same way over the pulpit then I become confused, hurt and wondering why this God that I serve is different in the two respective places - church and home.
This particular friend is one I've been in a Friday morning study group with for over 1 1/2 years now. She and another lady and I meet each week. The other lady has been born again as has her son (he was first). The one I had lunch with today is a real "hard core" Baptist, as is her husband. I have taken great care to be very patient, praying for the wisdom only the Lord can provide to not mess this up royally!
She is not one of those who is stuck in what I called "greasy grace". She is digging and hungry. She recognizes the pitfalls of that theology and agrees that one thing missing in denominational churches is sacrifice.
I do not preach any sort of standards when with them. In fact, the other lady still attends the same Baptist church, has not quit wearing pants or jewelry or makeup, etc. I have not said a word to her about it, either. That's for God, in His time, and for her "hope-to-soon-be" Apostolic pastor. But, even on that, I do not push her. She has only been to my church once, in fact.
Anyway, I do think I understand your post. I have to be very careful and rely on the Lord for the words I speak in front of these. I also have a group I meet with on Thursday nights (tonight) that is mostly Methodists (or ex) searching for something deeper. They have not heard Acts 2:38 or standards come out of my mouth once in 4 months now. They won't until the Holy Ghost tells me to, and then it will likely only be obedience to the Gospel.
I hope I got your point. Even if I didn't, what I got was received. I appreciate your spirit here!
__________________
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. [Zechariah 14:9]
Ignorance of the Identity of the One True God is not a valid reason to practice idolatry.
Thank you for your response. I am trying to be careful here and hope my thoughts are clear as to what I am trying to say.
I've talked, through the years, with preachers, evangelists, etc. about what we convey as a church. The overwhelming answer is that - underneath who we are and what we do it comes across as more "judgment" and not "mercy and love".
I realize that the scripture says that the "Word of God is powerful and sharper than any two edged sword piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart".
I think that with the strictness or line we want to walk, we also need to be careful not to bath that sword in blood before we wield it.
I'm thinking of the times in private prayer, in repentance, when He comes to me and gently instructs me and takes my hand, so to speak, and causes me to rise again.
When it is not conveyed in that same way over the pulpit then I become confused, hurt and wondering why this God that I serve is different in the two respective places - church and home.
This particular friend is one I've been in a Friday morning study group with for over 1 1/2 years now. She and another lady and I meet each week. The other lady has been born again as has her son (he was first). The one I had lunch with today is a real "hard core" Baptist, as is her husband. I have taken great care to be very patient, praying for the wisdom only the Lord can provide to not mess this up royally!
She is not one of those who is stuck in what I called "greasy grace". She is digging and hungry. She recognizes the pitfalls of that theology and agrees that one thing missing in denominational churches is sacrifice.
I do not preach any sort of standards when with them. In fact, the other lady still attends the same Baptist church, has not quit wearing pants or jewelry or makeup, etc. I have not said a word to her about it, either. That's for God, in His time, and for her "hope-to-soon-be" Apostolic pastor. But, even on that, I do not push her. She has only been to my church once, in fact.
Anyway, I do think I understand your post. I have to be very careful and rely on the Lord for the words I speak in front of these. I also have a group I meet with on Thursday nights (tonight) that is mostly Methodists (or ex) searching for something deeper. They have not heard Acts 2:38 or standards come out of my mouth once in 4 months now. They won't until the Holy Ghost tells me to, and then it will likely only be obedience to the Gospel.
I hope I got your point. Even if I didn't, what I got was received. I appreciate your spirit here!
Thank you again. I understand what you are saying here. I believe that we are always careful when we work with people in sin or other denominations.
I think that I coming from the perspective of how we handle the body.
Many times I hear it preached that we are quick to put our foot in the neck of our brother when he is down. In other words, a young man who was raised in the church and got out when he came of age was telling me that when you come back you are judged and perceived to be the person you always were before repentance. Your past taints your future. It is a hard thing to get up and keep on walking with this attitude surrounding you.
Now, I have watched this and found it to be true in many instances. So, I wonder, when we preach mercy, grace and forgiveness, why do we withhold that from our own brethren?
This gives us the reputation of "kick them when they are down" and then lends the credence that we are more of "judgment" than we are of "mercy".
I believe this is where I am going with this. I appreciate your patience with me as I express my thoughts and bounce them off of you.
I think that I coming from the perspective of how we handle the body.
Many times I hear it preached that we are quick to put our foot in the neck of our brother when he is down. In other words, a young man who was raised in the church and got out when he came of age was telling me that when you come back you are judged and perceived to be the person you always were before repentance. Your past taints your future. It is a hard thing to get up and keep on walking with this attitude surrounding you.
Now, I have watched this and found it to be true in many instances. So, I wonder, when we preach mercy, grace and forgiveness, why do we withhold that from our own brethren?
This gives us the reputation of "kick them when they are down" and then lends the credence that we are more of "judgment" than we are of "mercy".
I believe this is where I am going with this. I appreciate your patience with me as I express my thoughts and bounce them off of you.
I do understand better what you're talking about now, but looked back at the "greasy grace" question and wonder how this applies?
But, on the above..........
I am guilty of what you say regarding not forgetting about a person's past. I fight it constantly when thinking about certain people in our congregation. The sad thing, but the thing that slaps me upside the head, is that I was "one of those". I even stood up in front of our church not long after returning from my 20 year backslide and said that some of them wouldn't like me if I told them some of the things I had done. I truly meant it then, but realize how true it is today. We all are afflicted with it......even the most tenured saint and pastor. Some just get over it quicker and easier, I guess. I sure do pray that I can someday!!
__________________
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. [Zechariah 14:9]
Ignorance of the Identity of the One True God is not a valid reason to practice idolatry.
This is another false assumption in many believer's lives. The pastor will preach a standard, and the backslidden rebel will say that they have no conviction on that issue. They will claim it not as part of their personal convictions. But, in all essence, it is the attempt to rebel against the God given authority in the believer's life.
Or we can do like you do and just change churches as to find a pastor we agree with, right?
__________________
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