Contract Question

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

Those substances will kill you just like the hamburger or the cigerette so whats you point. When some one uses those drugs it impares they thinking. I have never known a cig or hambuger to do that..Yes it would be wrong to have a stoner come into a sunday school room and teach but cigs do not alter your thinking..

Well I'm just curious because you distinctly said that smoking is not a sin, it's just bad for you.

I thought the point of my question was pretty clear. It was just to get a straight answer, if possible, to a straight question: If smoking is not a sin, would heroin or cocaine be a sin (provided that it does not violate any local laws)?

I'm just trying to understand you here. Are you saying that although they are destructive, since cigarettes dont impair your thinking they're not sinful, but since concaine/heroin do impair your thinking they are sinful?

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Just curious, in light of your view on this, what is your response to those who view these verses as a scriptural prohibition against jewelry for the New Testament age?:

9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. (1 Tim 2:9-10)

3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. (1 Pet 3:3-4)

And I'm not asking this to be argumentative at all, by the way. Just wanted to get an idea of what someone's answer would be to those who use these as anti-jewelry scriptures.
(This question is not just directed to Prax and AquietPlace, by the way. Anyone else who wants to chime in with their thoughts, feel free.)

1 Timothy 2:9 (English Standard Version)

9likewise also(A) that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10(S) but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, wives,(A) be subject to your own husbands, so that(B) even if some do not obey the word,(C) they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2when they see your(D) respectful and pure conduct. 3(E) Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4but let your adorning be(F) the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious.



To me these verses speak of modesty and moderation. And where our focus is to be - on our gentle conduct and good works. "Do not let your adorning be external" I think is a key to what he's saying. He's obviously not saying to not wear clothes, or fix your hair - or in my opinion - to not wear jewels. But to let your true beauty be the spirit that shines from within you.

When I think of someone 'adorning' themselves with "braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire" I think of a very overdone, ostentatious look. Trying to draw attention to yourself through your clothing, jewels and hairstyles.

I don't understand why we Pentecostals have latched onto the 'gold and pearls' part of that scripture, but ignore the hairstyle and costly array admonition. And boy, do we ever ignore it!

When you think of someone adorning themselves with gold and pearls, do you think of a simple gold chain around their neck, or do you think of overdone, attention-grabbing jewelry?

I think modesty and moderation is the key in everything we do, and our focus is to be on our inward beauty, not outward. In my opinion, this is the point they are trying to convey in these scriptures.

[Pragmatist]

As someone who does not agree with what the church I attend teaches 100%, I am curious to how some of you think I should find a church that I do agree with. I don't live in the Bible belt and don't have many options. My husband does not in any way feel led or desire to start his own church. We disagree with basically all of the dress standards and some of the lifestyle standards. We agree with the salvation message and I'm not aware of another church within driving distance that teaches it.

[*AQuietPlace*]

One other point, about I Tim 2:9 and I Pet. 3:3 - I think in our day, this would be similar to a preacher preaching about inward holiness, and saying "You shouldn't be known by the fancy car you drive, or the nice house you own, or the fine clothes you wear - you should be known by your charity, your love, your godly spirit!"

He wouldn't mean that you shouldn't own a nice car, house, or clothes - but that they shouldn't be a status symbol for you, what you want to be known by. But that you should desire to be known more for your love for your brother, and not the outward trappings of life.

Not an exact analogy I know, but close I think.

[commonsense]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

1 Timothy 2:9 (English Standard Version)

9likewise also(A) that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10(S) but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, wives,(A) be subject to your own husbands, so that(B) even if some do not obey the word,(C) they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2when they see your(D) respectful and pure conduct. 3(E) Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4but let your adorning be(F) the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious.


To me these verses speak of modesty and moderation. And where our focus is to be - on our gentle conduct and good works. "Do not let your adorning be external" I think is a key to what he's saying. He's obviously not saying to not wear clothes, or fix your hair - or in my opinion - to not wear jewels. But to let your true beauty be the spirit that shines from within you.

When I think of someone 'adorning' themselves with "braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire" I think of a very overdone, ostentatious look. Trying to draw attention to yourself through your clothing, jewels and hairstyles.

I don't understand why we Pentecostals have latched onto the 'gold and pearls' part of that scripture, but ignore the hairstyle and costly array admonition. And boy, do we ever ignore it!

When you think of someone adorning themselves with gold and pearls, do you think of a simple gold chain around their neck, or do you think of overdone, attention-grabbing jewelry?

I think modesty and moderation is the key in everything we do, and our focus is to be on our inward beauty, not outward. In my opinion, this is the point they are trying to convey in these scriptures.

Great analysis. Key word--moderation--or as I would say "commonsense"!

I personally think some of the man made directives are an insult to scripture.
If we have to jump through hoops to dissect and understand the meaning maybe it doesn't say what we want it to say.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

Those substances will kill you just like the hamburger or the cigerette so whats you point. When some one uses those drugs it impares they thinking. I have never known a cig or hambuger to do that..Yes it would be wrong to have a stoner come into a sunday school room and teach but cigs do not alter your thinking..

No, but they bring the temple of God under bondage. Being addicted to any substance is out of line with Christianity, whether that's food, nicotine, prescription drugs or other substances.

I would not want someone who smoked teaching my children in class. I prefer people who are good examples of self control in all areas.

Perhaps Christians who smoke should consider fasting from cigarettes routinely, so they can make sure they are actually in control of the substance.

I suggest 40 days.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

As someone who does not agree with what the church I attend teaches 100%, I am curious to how some of you think I should find a church that I do agree with.

I don't think anyone attends a church in which they believe 100% everything that is done or taught. There's nothing wrong in attending a church with which you don't believe 100% ... as long as the disagreement isn't with salvation issues.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Just curious, in light of your view on this, what is your response to those who view these verses as a scriptural prohibition against jewelry for the New Testament age?:

9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. (1 Tim 2:9-10)

3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. (1 Pet 3:3-4)

And I'm not asking this to be argumentative at all, by the way. Just wanted to get an idea of what someone's answer would be to those who use these as anti-jewelry scriptures.
(This question is not just directed to Prax and AquietPlace, by the way. Anyone else who wants to chime in with their thoughts, feel free.)

To me this goes along with the verse "Favor is deceitful, beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the Lord will be praised." It's what's on the inside that really counts, and what we DO!

However, I don't believe these verses make jewelry, braids and fine clothes sinful; but I think they ask us to be moderate and to focus on the things that really matter, those things that have eternal import.

If fine clothes are sinful, then the virtuous woman wasn't very virtuous. If jewelry is so terrible, why did Rebecca receive jewelry as gifts meant to entice her to marry Isaac?

It's the heart that matters most.

Furthermore, if these verses are taken literally, then that would mean that any jewelry that isn't gold, pearls or costly would be fine--right? So then it's alright to have jewelry made of plastic, silver or other materials?

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by nnorth

Your response would be the "common sense" question/response. I must admit the thought has occurred to me. However, I have been taught over the last 30 years that I have been apart of the Church, that I must be sure that I self-examine myself and my beliefs and make sure that they are aligned with God's word and not aligned with my flesh.

It's tough, but when it's my family's eternity in the balance than I must be sure that I'm patient and not be quick to make a knee jerk reaction and just leave.

Profound statement! Takes a disciplined individual to make a decision
based on what you have expressed here, brother! I commend you for it!
Thinking of others, especially your own family, is very unselfish, very wise!
Thinking only of oneself and our own personal feelings is NOT wise.
Flesh feels. Flesh wants to get even, but must be disciplined to line up
with what the Spirit would desire instead. Bless you, Brother!

Falla39

[Theophil]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

1 Timothy 2:9 (English Standard Version)

9likewise also(A) that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10(S) but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.

1 Peter 3:1 Likewise, wives,(A) be subject to your own husbands, so that(B) even if some do not obey the word,(C) they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2when they see your(D) respectful and pure conduct. 3(E) Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4but let your adorning be(F) the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious.



To me these verses speak of modesty and moderation. And where our focus is to be - on our gentle conduct and good works. "Do not let your adorning be external" I think is a key to what he's saying. He's obviously not saying to not wear clothes, or fix your hair - or in my opinion - to not wear jewels. But to let your true beauty be the spirit that shines from within you.

When I think of someone 'adorning' themselves with "braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire" I think of a very overdone, ostentatious look. Trying to draw attention to yourself through your clothing, jewels and hairstyles.

I don't understand why we Pentecostals have latched onto the 'gold and pearls' part of that scripture, but ignore the hairstyle and costly array admonition. And boy, do we ever ignore it!

When you think of someone adorning themselves with gold and pearls, do you think of a simple gold chain around their neck, or do you think of overdone, attention-grabbing jewelry?

I think modesty and moderation is the key in everything we do, and our focus is to be on our inward beauty, not outward. In my opinion, this is the point they are trying to convey in these scriptures.

Great post! Exactly how I preach it.