We're Not Putting X-Mas Trees Up!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Imagine celebrating your birthday on a day you weren't born.

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Bro. EB, when was Christ born?

If you're honest you'll answer that we don't know.

So then, if we don't know, is it altogether wrong to choose a day to remember and honor Christ's birth?

And if there was a day used by pagans to honor a pagan god's birth, would it be a sin to take that day away from the pagan god and dedicate it to Christ, it's rightful heir?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Saint Paul acknowledged that some esteem one day above another and some esteem every day as the same. What they have in common is their intent. Both groups of people esteem or don't esteem to the Glory of God.

He elaborated on this to help stop the fragmentation of the Church along issues that are not "crucial".

Taking what he taught concerning "doubtful disputations", I believe what I have typed above is completely 100% Biblical, and thus, correct and the truth concerning our Christian brothers and sisters who do or don't celebrate Christmas.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Saint Paul acknowledged that some esteem one day above another and some esteem every day as the same. What they have in common is their intent. Both groups of people esteem or don't esteem to the Glory of God.

He elaborated on this to help stop the fragmentation of the Church along issues that are not "crucial".

Taking what he taught concerning "doubtful disputations", I believe what I have typed above is completely 100% Biblical, and thus, correct and the truth concerning our Christian brothers and sisters who do or don't celebrate Christmas.

Amen.

Those who insist that we must not esteem a day over any other and those who insist that we must are dividing the church. That's the REAL sin in this issue.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Saint Paul acknowledged that some esteem one day above another and some esteem every day as the same. What they have in common is their intent. Both groups of people esteem or don't esteem to the Glory of God.

He elaborated on this to help stop the fragmentation of the Church along issues that are not "crucial".

Taking what he taught concerning "doubtful disputations", I believe what I have typed above is completely 100% Biblical, and thus, correct and the truth concerning our Christian brothers and sisters who do or don't celebrate Christmas.

I do not celebrate the holidays and yet I do not condemn my brother who does. I have worked out my convictions between my God and myself and feel compelled to allow my brother the same privilege.

But... let me say about the verse you quoted...

I don't believe that this scripture was trying to say that if someone kept one of the festivals of Diana... or a feast of Osiris... that it was okay.

I think this verse is saying... some keep the sabbath... some do not... some keep Feast of Tabernacles... some don't.

I feel that if someone kept the celebration of Saturnalia during the times of the apostles that this would not be acceptable and the verse you quoted, to me, does not convey that intent.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I do not celebrate the holidays and yet I do not condemn my brother who does. I have worked out my convictions between my God and myself and feel compelled to allow my brother the same privilege.

But... let me say about the verse you quoted...

I don't believe that this scripture was trying to say that if someone kept one of the festivals of Diana... or a feast of Osiris... that it was okay.

I think this verse is saying... some keep the sabbath... some do not... some keep Feast of Tabernacles... some don't.

I feel that if someone kept the celebration of Saturnalia during the times of the apostles that this would not be acceptable and the verse you quoted, to me, does not convey that intent.

I understand what you're saying. But here's the issue, no one's keeping the "celebration of Saturnalia". Frankly, I've only heard the term "Saturnalia" in forum debates like these. I never even mention it around Christmas time in my home or anywhere else. I'm sure I could ask my family what "Saturnalia" is and they'd think it was a bacteria. lol

To me it's primarily seasonal and cultural. The religious aspect of Christmas is honorary.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I understand what you're saying. But here's the issue, no one's keeping the "celebration of Saturnalia". Frankly, I've only heard the term "Saturnalia" in forum debates like these. I never even mention it around Christmas time in my home or anywhere else. I'm sure I could ask my family what "Saturnalia" is and they'd think it was a bacteria. lol

To me it's primarily seasonal and cultural. The religious aspect of Christmas is honorary.

That is why I tried to keep my post dealing with the intent of the verse. I understand how you feel about where we are now with the holiday. I just feel differently.

But... I was just wanting to make the point that, to me, that verse was written to allow for those who continued to keep OT celebrations etc versus those who did not and to extend it out beyond that original intent would appear to be an extenuation beyond the original intent.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

That is why I tried to keep my post dealing with the intent of the verse. I understand how you feel about where we are now with the holiday. I just feel differently.

But... I was just wanting to make the point that, to me, that verse was written to allow for those who continued to keep OT celebrations etc versus those who did not and to extend it out beyond that original intent would appear to be an extenuation beyond the original intent.

From my understanding this is in the book of Romans and it was written to the church in Rome. Do you believe that Gentile Roman Christians dropped all Roman cultural customs when they became Christians?

[Sept5SavedTeen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

From my understanding this is in the book of Romans and it was written to the church in Rome. Do you believe that Gentile Roman Christians dropped all Roman cultural customs when they became Christians?

I'm looking forward to D4T's answer and explanation... I believe the holy days of the Romans were DEFINATELY droppped, although customs that didn't oppose sound Christian doctrine were kept.

-Bro. Alex

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you dress up for church?

No.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you see any problem with steeples?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you center the congregation on a "pulpit"?

Yes, of Jewish origin. And since Christianity began as a Jewish sect...it makes sense.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you give an "altar call"?

Not given in my church, but there is an opportunity to call the elders to pray with you if you desire.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you tithe?

Jewish origin.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you preach a "sermon"?

Teaching on the Sabbath is of Jewish origin.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you use "grape juice" for communion instead of real wine?

No.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Do you use a "wafer" instead of real unleavened bread for communion?

No.

Originally Posted by Aquila

...the list could go on and on.

It could. One thing I am is extremely consistent. Would you like to go on?

Originally Posted by Aquila

All of the things and practices listed above are not of Christian origin.

Not if you're considering Christianity as a separate religion from Judaism, no. But since Judaism was established by the same God I worship, I kind of figure it works for Him... But, I'm learning that there may be those here who wish to completely separate themselves from the Old Testament. It intrigues me.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Now, in regards to Christmas and holiday customs, I look at them kind of like this, David took Goliath's sword and placed it in the Temple to give God glory. We've taken what was the enemy's and we're using it to draw the world's attention to Christ.

As for the "Christmas tree" and other "customs", I see it as ethnic and cultural customs. Kind of like music. Most instruments used in today's worship aren't "biblical". They are cultural. We use them in the West because these are our instruments. If we lived in Africa, we'd wear African garb and use African insturments. My previous pastor was once given a wooden statue of a "spirit warrior" by a tribal chieftan from Africa. The chieftan explained that my previous pastor was a "spirit warrior" and that this statue embodied his passion for God. My pastor kept it and cherished it to his dying day.

It was still an idol. There's no judgment in that statement, the story made me smile. But no matter how precious those people were, no matter how sincere that gift was, no matter how much that pastor didn't worship it..it was still an idol.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Some things are just cultural. I'm Dutch, Irish, English, and German. I'm proud of my heritage and maintain my European cultural identity. I'm not in on this "war against white European identity" garbage that wants to erase anything European from our culture. For me the war you're waging is not just about "paganism" but it's an effort to erase cultural identity. I'm European, always have been...always will be. And you can live with it or die with it on your mind.

And God told His people to remain separate from the cultures and customs of the other nations.

[nahkoe]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I do not celebrate the holidays and yet I do not condemn my brother who does. I have worked out my convictions between my God and myself and feel compelled to allow my brother the same privilege.

But... let me say about the verse you quoted...

I don't believe that this scripture was trying to say that if someone kept one of the festivals of Diana... or a feast of Osiris... that it was okay.

I think this verse is saying... some keep the sabbath... some do not... some keep Feast of Tabernacles... some don't.

I feel that if someone kept the celebration of Saturnalia during the times of the apostles that this would not be acceptable and the verse you quoted, to me, does not convey that intent.

Exactly. On all the points. lol