Does Dan Seagraves Believe in the LIght Doctrine????

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by PaPaDon

One of the things which was of greatest concern to me after conversion to the Oneness Apostolic Pentecostal faith (after 48 yrs of association with the Church of Christ), was centered upon the fate of my beloved parents who had gone to their graves following a lifetime of embracing the teachings of the CofC. I met, and became a very close friend of an elderly retired UPCI pastor, & after expressing my concerns about this to him, he sought to assure me that my parents would not suffer loss, equating members of the OAP to the priests of old who administered within the confines of the tabernacle, and all other religions likened unto the Israelites who were outside of the outer walls of the tabernacle. I perceived his remarks as saying that as long as people believed in God & were members of some type of "Christian" church, they were saved. For a long while this bothered me, for I viewed it as a direct contradiction of Paul's words to the saints at Galatia: "But though we (referring to himself & the other apostles), or (even) an angel from heaven, preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that which WE (the apostles) have preached unto you, let him be accursed." (Gal. 1:8) (added emphasis mine own)

I was also troubled with his explanation for I viewed it conflicting with these words spoken by our Lord, when asked the question - Lord, are there few that be saved? His response - "Strive to enter in at the strait gate; for MANY, I say unto you WILL SEEK TO ENTER in, and SHALL NOT be able. Would someone please correct me if my understanding is amiss, but was Jesus not explicitly asserting that even though there would be MANY who would SEEK to enter in the eternal kingdom of God, nevertheless there would be ONLY a FEW which would be granted entrance? If this be true, then what would be the ultimate determining factor? In seeking a scripturally sound response to this important question I believe one must look to the statements our Lord made to Nicodemus: "Except a man is BORN AGAIN of water and of the Spirit, he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5)

Only recently (& long after the death of my elder pastor friend), did I discover WHY he believed the way he did about this matter. His beliefs, I learned, was of the "old school," not unlike those embraced by such men as Haywood, A. Urshan, and others, and, if what I have gleaned from the things being posted here, are also embraced, to some degree, by Bro. Segraves of CLC.

There is more that I would like to write on this matter, and hope to do so shortly.

No where in this thread has anyone said, Daniel Segraves believes in the light doctrine, but what he does believe in scripture and the teaching that at the moment of faith a person is justified (declared righteous with God) he also believes that genuine faith is transformative and lead to obedience and the normative Christian birth is Acts 2:38.

He did tell us what the early church leaders taught and their emphasis on conversion at repentance and faith, but he does not take a position. If you ask him outright he will point you to the articles of faith and until more recently validated and highlighted that conversion and sins were forgiven at faith and repentance.

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

Sabellius, so you believe that one can be raptured or go to Heaven if they live in the light they have without Acts 2:38 then? If so, then we have a major, major disagreement on this one. All these denominations and churches have a Bible, and the members read said Bible. The plan of salvation is in the Bible, clear as can be. If any soul is not saved the Bible way, they shall die in their sins. Not saved according to the light of truth they have, but one must be saved by grace through faith according to Acts 2:38.

There are many reasons you are single.........You are not telling him anything he doesn't know.

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

There are many reasons you are single.........You are not telling him anything he doesn't know.

I like the proclamations with no support, don't you?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Rhoni

... If that is the Light Doctrine...then I believe in it also.

Blessings, Rhoni

Many, many OP's do not REALLY believe that ALL of the people who have ever lived from Adam onward who have not:
--been water baptized in Jesus' name
--spoken with tongues
--understood the "Godhead" completely
--dressed "properly"
are currently in Hell or will go there at death

[Sam]

Originally Posted by keith4him

...If you ask him outright he will point you to the articles of faith and until more recently validated and highlighted that conversion and sins were forgiven at faith and repentance.

That section of the Articles of Faith is a hangover from the old PCI organization. I'm surprised that it hasn't been removed by now. To some it represents a contradiction in UPC doctrine.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

Sabellius, so you believe that one can be raptured or go to Heaven if they live in the light they have without Acts 2:38 then? If so, then we have a major, major disagreement on this one. All these denominations and churches have a Bible, and the members read said Bible. The plan of salvation is in the Bible, clear as can be. If any soul is not saved the Bible way, they shall die in their sins. Not saved according to the light of truth they have, but one must be saved by grace through faith according to Acts 2:38.

Bro. Price,
You are a young man, and, I would assume, also young in the Lord.
Relax a little. Take a couple of deep breaths, and think what you are saying.
This Oneness Apostolic Jesus' Name Pentecostal movement is made up of many people and has been around for a long time. I'm almost 70 years old and it was going strong before I was ever born and, if the rapture does not take place in the next 20-30 years, it will be going strong after I have gone to my reward. There is a large diversity of people and of beliefs among the members of the Body of Christ. Men and women who are much smarter than you and I and who are much better people than you and I don't agree on lots of stuff. Cut them some slack, show some respect, and let God be the judge.

By the way, I heard Bro. Norris teach about the righteous, holy, and wicked and I have read Bro. Haywood's book on the resurrection. In my understanding, neither of them taught that these folks designated "righteous" would be in the rapture but that they would go to the "new earth" at the second resurrection as a reward for walking in all the light they had. Bro. F.E. Curts, a respected Bible teacher and former Dist. Supt. of Ohio, taught the holy, righteous, and wicked doctrine. He taught that the "righteous" would go to heaven at the second resurrection, but not in the rapture. So some of those who teach what we are referring to here as "the light doctrine" or "the holy, righteous, and wicked" doctrine are just teaching that God will judge people by how well they walked in the light they had and they are not "compromising" the Acts 2:38 (three-step) message as being required for New Testament salvation or regeneratiion.

There are, however, many in Oneness Pentecost (teachers and preachers) who believe that salvation/regeneration happens at faith in Jesus and repentance and that all those who have made that personal commitment to Jesus are part of the Body of Christ and will indeed be in the rapture. Bro. Goss, first Gen. Supt. of the UPC, plus many members of the original UPC gen. board taught that. And there are still some around today who believe that. Let's try to keep the spirit of the original "fundamental doctrine" statement of the UPC and respect one another and not contend for our personal understanding.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by keith4him

. If you ask him outright he will point you to the articles of faith and until more recently validated and highlighted that conversion and sins were forgiven at faith and repentance.

Are you saying that Dr. S believes remission of sins happens at the point of repentance and conversion ... that would fall more in line with a PCI view, if so.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Are you saying that Dr. S believes remission of sins happens at the point of repentance and conversion ... that would fall more in line with a PCI view, if so.

If forgiveness and remission are the same thing then yes.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by keith4him

If forgiveness and remission are the same thing then yes.

Having spoke to a former CLC alumnus this week ... he felt that Dr. S view was that justification was at the point of faith and that remission/forgiveness took place after repentance + baptism ... I think Sabellius also stated that he thinks this is Dr. S view ....

However, I know that you also are acquainted w/ Dr. S ... and are stating something contrary ....

Can you add to your assertions ...?

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Having spoke to a former CLC alumnus this week ... he felt that Dr. S view was that justification was at the point of faith and that remission/forgiveness took place after repentance + baptism ... I think Sabellius also stated that he thinks this is Dr. S view ....

However, I know that you also are acquainted w/ Dr. S ... and are stating something contrary ....

Can you add to your assertions ...?

Bro. Segraves believes and will state that even the article of faith in UPCI that pardon/forgiveness of sins happens at faith and repentance, previous to the baptism in water and in the Holy Spirit.

Here is an exact quote from his position paper from the UPCI symposium:

The Articles of Faith of the United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) locate justification under the heading “Repentance,” which until 1995 (the first fifty years of existence for the UPCI) was titled “Repentance and Conversion.” The first two sentences of this article read, “Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1).”