Do you think Two Church services a month is enough?

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Michlow

Well I wouldn't exactly call it a bowl of cherries

I have been on the verge of this place for years, and rather than going through it and coming out the other side, I keep trying to stuff myself back into the little box that I came out of, because its comfortable and familiar. Well, I can't do that anymore, and so I just have to deal with it. Scary and depressing or not.

Besides, I am not completely alone. I have Jesus

And I believe that eventually in His timing, he will bring into my life, others whom I can trust.

but based on your specified observations, you'll never find that person(s)....

Originally Posted by Michlow

A few months back, It finally became clear that there are no two people on the face of the earth that believe exactly the same things about God, the Bible, etc. Which means, that no one is 100% right. Which means, that everyone is partially wrong.

Therefore, everything that someone tells me is potentially wrong. Including, and even most especially those in ministry. What they are preaching, and what they believe is a mix between divine revelation, tradition, and training.

It is almost impossible to read and interpret the Bible in any way other than the way your experiences, your culture, your training has taught you.

The bottom line, is that I no longer have any faith in any man's interpretation of the Bible. They all think they are right, and they aren't. To be honest, I have a hard time listening to preaching right now, because all I know that I am simply listening to a man's opinion.

you are either looking for perfection in a pastor/minister (which you'll never find) or in an insititution (which again, you'll never find).... God has always used imperfect people to bring about His perfect will.... you or anyone else for that matter won't be an exception to that fact.... human imperfection in itself is not an excuse to avoid or disobey Biblical principles....

Michlow, you will walk in a miserable state until you come to the realization that you will eventually have to submit to an imperfect spiritual leader in your life.... you will walk around in a desert-like fashion until that attitude dies and you have a willingness to cross into the spiritual blessings that God has in store for you....

Throughout the scriptures God has annointed imperfect people to complete and fulfill His will.... You will never be happy as a Christian until you come to this conclusion for yourself.... as you read my reply, you don't like my response.... but there will be a day when you remember what I said and it may help you with the decision(s) that you will have to face....

God bless

Malvaro

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Michlow

Proverbs 21:2

2 All a man's ways seem right to him,
but the LORD weighs the heart.

Mal ~

I know you have been raised in church, so maybe this is hard for you to understand. Have you ever been lied to? Misled? Deceived? Taken Advantage of? By someone you trusted? By someone that you believed in? Not how about every person you have ever trusted? Now, some were well-intentioned, and some were just malicious, but they were wrong.
I am not saying that I know what's right, or that I have all the answers. If it makes you feel better, I don't trust myself any more than I trust anyone else. That's the whole point. I used to know everything, and now I know nothing. There are no answers, only questions. The longer I know God, and search His word, the more I realize that.

Yah, actually way too many times.... I choose to obey what I understand as Biblical truths in spite of some of the people around me.... I have more reasons to leave the UPC than most here, but that alone won't change my course any....

[Whole Hearted]

Originally Posted by Michlow

I don't know how to say this without coming across as either grossly arrogant or extremely insulting to my Pastor.

A few months back, It finally became clear that there are no two people on the face of the earth that believe exactly the same things about God, the Bible, etc. Which means, that no one is 100% right. Which means, that everyone is partially wrong.

Therefore, everything that someone tells me is potentially wrong. Including, and even most especially those in ministry. What they are preaching, and what they believe is a mix between divine revelation, tradition, and training.

It is almost impossible to read and interpret the Bible in any way other than the way your experiences, your culture, your training has taught you.

The bottom line, is that I no longer have any faith in any man's interpretation of the Bible. They all think they are right, and they aren't. To be honest, I have a hard time listening to preaching right now, because all I know that I am simply listening to a man's opinion.

I do still believe that the Bible is the Word of God, but to be honest, I am disillusioned enough that I don't claim to know much more than that. I have heard it twisted and turned and used to destroy people, and prove all manners of wickedness, and I guess I just got fed up.

To some of you, even this confession is most likely enough to make you believe that I therefore have nothing of interest to say, or that I am so far gone as to be completely useless, to be honest, that is what I expect from you, so no biggie.

you are heading down a road of destruction.

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Whole Hearted

you are heading down a road of destruction.

Frankness is one of your stronger attributes, isn't it???

[Whole Hearted]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

Frankness is one of your stronger attributes, isn't it???

I believe being frank.

If she continues down this road she will be lost. No man is perfect and we know that. but every one must have a pastor and everyone must come under subjection.

Obey them that have the rule over you is still in the word of God.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

but based on your specified observations, you'll never find that person(s)....



you are either looking for perfection in a pastor/minister (which you'll never find) or in an insititution (which again, you'll never find).... God has always used imperfect people to bring about His perfect will.... you or anyone else for that matter won't be an exception to that fact.... human imperfection in itself is not an excuse to avoid or disobey Biblical principles....

Michlow, you will walk in a miserable state until you come to the realization that you will eventually have to submit to an imperfect spiritual leader in your life.... you will walk around in a desert-like fashion until that attitude dies and you have a willingness to cross into the spiritual blessings that God has in store for you....

Throughout the scriptures God has annointed imperfect people to complete and fulfill His will.... You will never be happy as a Christian until you come to this conclusion for yourself.... as you read my reply, you don't like my response.... but there will be a day when you remember what I said and it may help you with the decision(s) that you will have to face....

God bless

Malvaro

Believe it or not, I am not looking for perfection. I am simply looking for something real. Something that doesn't claim to have all the answers, something that affirms the need to constantly question.

You are right that I will never find another person that I will trust completely without reservation, and I will most likely never be able to submit myself to a minister/Pastor the way that you believe to be necessary, because I do not believe that to be the right way, holding one person up above all others. I do not believe that is biblical either. Now, mutual submission, that is the key.

I know that I can explain myself until I am blue in the face and you will never understand. And that's ok. Feel free to think that I am crazy, or backslidden or lost, or worse. I kept quiet so long because of the "what will people think" thoughts. And now, I don't care anymore.

Originally Posted by Michlow

I don't know how to say this without coming across as either grossly arrogant or extremely insulting to my Pastor.

But since you don't seem to be committed to a local assembly, you really don't have a pastor.

A few months back, It finally became clear that there are no two people on the face of the earth that believe exactly the same things about God, the Bible, etc. Which means, that no one is 100% right. Which means, that everyone is partially wrong.

Well, God is 100 percent right 100 percent of the time. That humans aren't is really irrelevant.

Therefore, everything that someone tells me is potentially wrong. Including, and even most especially those in ministry. What they are preaching, and what they believe is a mix between divine revelation, tradition, and training.

But what is GOD telling you? What does His word tell you?

It is almost impossible to read and interpret the Bible in any way other than the way your experiences, your culture, your training has taught you.

I disagree. In fact, we must NEVER use our experiences, etc. as the basis for interpreting scripture. We must let scripture be the basis for interpreting our experiences, etc. Does that mean there aren't valid and invalid hermeneutics (methods of interpretation)? No, it just means that we need to rely on the Holy Ghost to lead us into all truth.

The bottom line, is that I no longer have any faith in any man's interpretation of the Bible. They all think they are right, and they aren't. To be honest, I have a hard time listening to preaching right now, because all I know that I am simply listening to a man's opinion.

Our faith is in God alone. One thing I've often told people was that when they hear something taught from the pulpit, they are obligated to go home and study it out for themselves just like the Bereans in Acts 17.

I do still believe that the Bible is the Word of God, but to be honest, I am disillusioned enough that I don't claim to know much more than that. I have heard it twisted and turned and used to destroy people, and prove all manners of wickedness, and I guess I just got fed up.

Go to God! I think the problem here is that you've spent a lot of time putting your trust in humans instead of in God. There are too many Christians today who do exactly that and what you're describing in your post is often what results from it. You absolutely MUST have your own growing relationship with God and part of that relationship necessitates ongoing communication with Him. Prayer is a two-way conversation between you and God and you know as well as I do that it's impossible to have a relationship with someone where there is no communication going on. Work on that two-way conversation with God and the rest will fall into place.

Originally Posted by Michlow

Believe it or not, I am not looking for perfection. I am simply looking for something real. Something that doesn't claim to have all the answers, something that affirms the need to constantly question.

But Jesus claimed to be the answer and the Church affirms that He is..."Jesus is the answer for the world today..."

You are right that I will never find another person that I will trust completely without reservation, and I will most likely never be able to submit myself to a minister/Pastor the way that you believe to be necessary, because I do not believe that to be the right way, holding one person up above all others. I do not believe that is biblical either. Now, mutual submission, that is the key.

Start by submitting yourself to God and dying to yourself.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Whole Hearted

you are heading down a road of destruction.

I guess time will tell....

Originally Posted by Malvaro

Frankness is one of your stronger attributes, isn't it???

I appreciate frankness, so its OK.

Originally Posted by Whole Hearted

I believe being frank.

If she continues down this road she will be lost. No man is perfect and we know that. but every one must have a pastor and everyone must come under subjection.

Obey them that have the rule over you is still in the word of God.

I do not believe in the placing of one man as the absolute spiritual authority. But technically I do have a Pastor, at least I call him Pastor, but he doesn't boss me around, in fact anytime I have tried to pin him in a corner and ask "are you telling me I have to...?" he Just sighs and says "Michelle, just fall in love with Jesus"

so TECHNICALLY, I have never disobeyed him, but really, I disagree with alot of what he teaches, and I am pretty sure that Ultra Con's like you, disapprove of saints having independent opinions

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Michlow

Believe it or not, I am not looking for perfection. I am simply looking for something real. Something that doesn't claim to have all the answers, something that affirms the need to constantly question.

You are right that I will never find another person that I will trust completely without reservation, and I will most likely never be able to submit myself to a minister/Pastor the way that you believe to be necessary, because I do not believe that to be the right way, holding one person up above all others. I do not believe that is biblical either. Now, mutual submission, that is the key.

I know that I can explain myself until I am blue in the face and you will never understand. And that's ok. Feel free to think that I am crazy, or backslidden or lost, or worse. I kept quiet so long because of the "what will people think" thoughts. And now, I don't care anymore.

Servant leadership is an important concept but so is God-appointed leadership.... Moses, Joshua, David, the prophets, the apostles.... God always places some above the rest in regards to authority, responsibility and accountability.... i would be interested if you could show me in the scriptures where it is otherwise....

Korah didn't think Moses should rule over Israel either (Numbers 16).... the rebellious spirit of Korah will destroy anyone....

God's speed in your journeys....